tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post5807632358657892960..comments2023-10-12T05:32:43.976-05:00Comments on Church Discipline: Sovereign Grace MinistriesCD-Hosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-32125726672924758342011-05-08T19:49:06.877-06:002011-05-08T19:49:06.877-06:00Patti, you and your daughter might enjoy this webs...Patti, you and your daughter might enjoy this website <br /><br />http://thewartburgwatch.com/category/sovereign-grace-ministries/sgm/Debra Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07320659656167721566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-76207364129787184432011-04-12T22:17:08.123-05:002011-04-12T22:17:08.123-05:00 Thanks, my daughter is graduating in media commun... Thanks, my daughter is graduating in media communications and American studies ..She read quite a bit of what SGM believes and the CBMW. she just signed up with cbeinternational.org to read the Mutuality issues which are very refreshing after reading all the oppressive dogma. After reading so much on this site and and other survivors it is looking dismal that he could change his mind any time soon. If anyone has been talked out of the SGM after a lifetime of the church and school and family please let us hear how you 'woke up'. I myself was raised in n IFB school but completely rejected God for the next 13 years. pattij553https://www.blogger.com/profile/01435724860017733784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-86001209423148478402011-04-12T12:20:16.050-05:002011-04-12T12:20:16.050-05:00pattij553 --
Next time you respond you can set em...pattij553 --<br /><br />Next time you respond you can set email updates and you'll see when this thread gets comments.<br /><br />I think Remnant's comment is a very good one. But your daughter is likely more experienced. And I'd be happy to show her where SGM is full of it. SGM Survivors and other related blogs like I kissed SGM Goodbye is excellent is she wants a less academic and more personal approach. <br /><br />BTW since you say she's graduating, what was her major so I know what sorts of stuff she already knows?CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-55570518494493963012011-04-12T11:54:17.951-05:002011-04-12T11:54:17.951-05:00Thank you for that advice. I did not see it until ...Thank you for that advice. I did not see it until now because I lost where I posted. A blogger at sgmsurvivor.com happened to mention they saw my post here. I posted under Wallace's story over there.pattij553https://www.blogger.com/profile/01435724860017733784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-31641956159927503782011-03-26T20:09:06.521-05:002011-03-26T20:09:06.521-05:00Pattij553 --
Well that depends. Yes there is hop...Pattij553 --<br /><br />Well that depends. Yes there is hope. There is a heck of a lot of information on the fallacies of complementarianism out there. But their subtle since you mentioned Wayne Grudam here is an <a href="http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/2009/04/wayne-grudam-and-heresy.html" rel="nofollow">example post dealing with his doctrine of the trinity</a>. The <a href="http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/2009/07/esvonlyism-on-blog-sphere.html" rel="nofollow">problems with the ESV translation</a> are often the heart of where Grudam creates false readings of scripture. So if he is willing to honestly approach scripture she is likely to undermine his faith in SGM. <br /><br />On the other hand, the more likely outcome is it tears the relationship apart. I guess you need to ask 3 questions:<br /><br />a) Is he more loyal to SGM or your daughter. If SGM is it close or will easily choose SGM over her?<br /><br />b) Does your daughter want to go down the road of reading critiques and learning them? This stuff is subtle and complex. In many ways she would be struggling with the same kinds of issues people do in divinity school. Is she invested enough in this guy to do that? Does she have that kind of aptitude? If she had to choose between marrying this guy and being a submissive wife, or not marrying him which would she choose? <br /><br />c) Is she going to naively believe that she can join SGM, marry this guy and still "be independent" long term? <br /><br />d) Are you OK with alternate outcomes? Other things might happen when she starts this critique:<br />a) Her faith could change to agree with his.<br />b) Her faith could change to become considerably more liberal. <br />c) They as a couple might come to practical agreements.<br /><br />etc... <br /><br />Think about those outcomes which ones are you not OK with? Finally if she does start SGM make sure they both know you are willing to provide a door out if they ever decide to leave.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-67288139787673210292011-03-26T16:24:26.099-05:002011-03-26T16:24:26.099-05:00My daughter is dating a man from SGM. She did not ...My daughter is dating a man from SGM. She did not know what they believed until their relationship became serious. She was happy he was a Christian and like her believes in the traditional 'wait to until' married doctrine. But now they are fighting over doctrines of patriarchy and parental control of adult children. She actually attends a church with female pastors and believes as do I the doctrine of mutual submission in marriage. This young man she is dating seems to be so balanced and smart and educated until we start discussing these religious issues. Until reading blogs like this one I had no idea the hold of brainwashing and fear of what he may lose if he continues this relationship with my daughter. I am not angry with him. I feel sorry for him. He told my daughter it is sin that she and I have been questioning the doctrines by digging into the original scriptures as much as possible with tools online such as scripture4all.com and blueletterbible.com. He brought me Wayne Grudem's doctrinal book and I have been reading CBMW. I also see no encouragement from them or the SGM sites to do individual bible study to see if what they teach is correct. I am asking for advice here if anyone thinks there is any hope for my daughter to pull him away from the SGM. He even attended their schools his whole life and has had a good family experience and sees no reason to change at this point.pattij553https://www.blogger.com/profile/01435724860017733784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-15369448179100097202011-03-22T19:30:57.062-05:002011-03-22T19:30:57.062-05:00I at one point functioned as a member of what has ...I at one point functioned as a member of what has been described as a cult. So what I have to say is experiential and hopefully will be helpful to some, as they read this.I was- when involved in this church, gullable to a great extent and have seen the light. Allow me to make a statement--# 1 If you don't enjoy the fellowship and worship, move on.<br />#2 If those who are leading can dish it but can't take it -move on. <br />#3 If the leaders tell you your proud, unteachable, move onkenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04575814151109444448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-56975365319931052482009-10-26T19:04:35.097-05:002009-10-26T19:04:35.097-05:00CD-Host
Are you aware of any mention of the need ...CD-Host<br /><br />Are you aware of any mention of the need to discipline erring SGM Leaders in their documentation. From what I can see all their emphasis is on regular members' sins and not those of leadership. It is as if they are only focusing on actions regular members without also emphasizing the need for disciplining errant leaders if/when they sin. <br /><br />This certainly seems quite imbalanced to me.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01527099698623190200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-67738789160548245372009-01-07T16:08:00.000-05:002009-01-07T16:08:00.000-05:00Debra --Agree with everything you wrote. Yep that...Debra --<BR/><BR/>Agree with everything you wrote. Yep that's also why they have higher levels of spousal abuse, more teen pregnancy, more incest, a higher likelihood of violence....<BR/><BR/>They are a destructive cult using parenting techniques which make people more susceptible to any destructive authority. And it starts with the Ezzo techniques which you quite rightly objected to.<BR/><BR/>As far as pedophiles you should see the patriarchal churches which encourage girls to relate to their fathers as practice husbands. Then they lend the girls off to do babysitting and domestic support to other homes. Talk about really laying down the skids. <BR/><BR/>Then to compound all that, patriarchy has a problem where the kids who do well in authoritarian structures don't make good patriarchs. In other words beat the kids into sheep they don't turn into lions once they get married. So you have lots of sexual frustrated unmarried 20 something you old men in these environments. <BR/><BR/>SGM just wants sheep so they don't have the same problems.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-83990988605233535482009-01-07T15:44:00.000-05:002009-01-07T15:44:00.000-05:00I believe their very draconian parenting practices...I believe their very draconian parenting practices actually endangers the kids to predation. That may sound harsh, but it isn't. These children are beaten into submission. They are forced to cry it out and schedule feed as infants thus conditioned to ignore their internal signals and become pathologically dependent upon authority figures.<BR/><BR/>It gets worse, these kids are trained (by being beaten into submission,) to obey the first time, immediatedly and cheerfully. They are taught to obey all adult authority in the church.<BR/><BR/>SGM churches are potentially a pediphile's wet dream. All they need do is engender trust amongst the adults and they have access to children who have no defense against the assaults of an adult. <BR/><BR/>Their patriarchal nature knee-jerk faovrs the males and so they turn on the victim and protect the perp. <BR/><BR/>If this doesn't wake up the people in these churches, nothing will.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-23606401490769821592009-01-07T10:28:00.000-05:002009-01-07T10:28:00.000-05:00Hi Debra --Yes I am. I commented on the thread in...Hi Debra --<BR/><BR/>Yes I am. I commented on the thread in answer to Kris's questions. If I'm going to do another SGM thread I'd do you with preference because:<BR/><BR/>1) I owe it to you<BR/><BR/>2) The abuse in your case is more clear cut. In Noel's case (making out the details that I could) there seemed to be substantial disagreement of fact. <BR/><BR/>3) You don't have the child sexual molestation angle so there is more light and less heat. <BR/><BR/>4) Both the victim and assailant were minors at the time, which means I can't document this as clearly as I'd like. <BR/><BR/>5) I know Kris censors to alter the political content of threads, that is suppress opinions she doesn't agree with. Which means I don't have any idea what I'm not seeing. <BR/><BR/>Regardless though I like the direction SGM survivors is moving in. The board has gone from slightly hostile i.e. a good institution with minor flaws to an institution with serious structural flaws, to now realizing that this is a cult not a church. When they finally are willing to admit C.J. knows about what's going on and wants it that way, then they really can be an effective rescue group. <BR/><BR/>Anyway I'm glad for you, as this must be excellent confirmation that they never had any interest in children's welfare!<BR/><BR/><BR/>So, thank you for letting me know. If I can to anything from a legal and/or church law standpoint I'm absolutely willing.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-48959233160598434742009-01-07T08:26:00.000-05:002009-01-07T08:26:00.000-05:00Are you aware of Noel's story?http://www.sgmsurviv...Are you aware of Noel's story?<BR/><BR/>http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-13890036509956873912008-08-06T08:26:00.000-06:002008-08-06T08:26:00.000-06:00Just to clarify, at the time of the Ezzo drama at ...Just to clarify, at the time of the Ezzo drama at our former church, dh and I were struggling with our position with regard to spanking. We leaned away from spanking but believed it was ok to have in our parenting toolbox in the form of our, "big guns."<BR/><BR/>I mentioned another family in the church that did not spank their children, perhaps our guest misunderstood what I had written.<BR/><BR/>Subsequent to our Ezzo drama, we decided that spanking was neither mandated in the bible nor effective in practice so we abandoned spanking alltogether.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-18384241738464301462008-08-04T09:29:00.000-06:002008-08-04T09:29:00.000-06:00Katie --No doubt even if you took the spanking out...Katie --<BR/><BR/>No doubt even if you took the spanking out of Ezzo's ministries it would still be abusive. The whole system is based on a vicious authoritarianism, hierarchy, a weird sort of deliberate neglect. <BR/><BR/>Of course the belief that failure to use a literal rod is being disobedient to scripture is just one more reason to reject Ezzo and anonymous7's viewCD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-37924215620121152862008-08-03T20:34:00.000-06:002008-08-03T20:34:00.000-06:00"Honestly addressing problems and working towards ...<I>"Honestly addressing problems and working towards solutions I've seen mentioned 0 times as the reason people don't come to Christ. This is frankly a BS excuse that authoritarian churches use so that their misconduct is not publicly addressed."</I><BR/><BR/>Stands up and cheers!!!!<BR/><BR/><I>Legitimate leaders when they hear about abusive practices want to find out how it happened, and make sure it doesn't happen again.</I> <BR/><BR/>That is very true. <BR/><BR/>Regarding the Ezzo thing, Anonymous 7 jumped to the conclusion that the Bakers had an issue with spanking. <BR/><BR/>The Ezzo books are controversial on many levels as well as being a poorly written manipulative presentation which is very confusing to follow because it is self-contradictory and poorly organized. Plenty of people who have no problem with spanking are critical of the Ezzos' approach, including folks like Ted Tripp, Dr. James Dobson, and Ezzo's former pastor, Dr. John MacArthur. <BR/><BR/>Just thought I would make that clear to readers who may get the wrong impression of the Ezzo issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-39441670494790867482008-07-21T05:46:00.000-06:002008-07-21T05:46:00.000-06:00Cd-host,Although it is very kind of you to offer t...Cd-host,<BR/><BR/>Although it is very kind of you to offer to help set up another board, I don't feel the need to debate the issue.<BR/><BR/>Of course, unless someone is itching for a debate in which case, I would oblige.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-64567197321487180412008-07-18T17:25:00.000-06:002008-07-18T17:25:00.000-06:00I'd be happy to open up a thread for Gary Ezzo and...I'd be happy to open up a thread for Gary Ezzo and /or physical discipline of children and Christianity provided<BR/><BR/>1) You both want it.<BR/>2) You both agree to get accounts on blogger so you are posting with names (they can be fake but just some sort of name).CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-31951729855950721432008-07-18T07:33:00.000-06:002008-07-18T07:33:00.000-06:00Quote from anonymous 7,"In such a case of parentin...Quote from anonymous 7,<BR/><BR/>"In such a case of parenting philosophies being addressed as unbiblical or of doctrinal importance, you can certainly see in Scripture where the "rod" is referred to many times to bring correction to a sinning child. SG's view of spanking seeks to be in line with biblical passages addressing correction and discipline. If a family chooses not to spank, SG would see that, as would we, as a possible disregard or dismissal of scriptural principles of correction of children.<BR/>Our personal experience in SG churches reveals leadership that has been careful not to hastily address such things as "of doctrinal importance," yet careful to address what needs to be addressed to protect the integrity of Scripture. (Yes, folks, God does gift some as pastors and teachers for a reason.) Unfortunately, the world's influence over biblical parenting is evident in today's culture - even Christian culture. SG wishes to guard against that. We are grateful for it."<BR/><BR/>Am I reading this correctly? <BR/><BR/>Are you suggesting that interpreting the verses in Proverbs as anything but literally hitting a child with a literal rod is, “the world's influence over biblical parenting?!”<BR/>Are you suggesting that a respected family whose children were well-behaved and well disciplined should be forbidden to share their parenting views with other members of the church? This actually happened to a family I know (not us, by the way.)<BR/><BR/>I could argue the validity of my views citing scripture and discussing the original Hebrew, but, sadly, I would be traversing beyond the scope of this blog. Suffice to say the word, “rod,” when mentioned in the Proverbial scriptures is modifying the word, “discipline,” which is the main emphasis of the verse. Christian parents are instructed to diligently *discipline* their children. The particular methodology is left to the discretion of the individual parents. In my life, I strive for techniques that are relatively gentle, non-physical, and respectful of the child’s developmental level and temperament. <BR/><BR/>I do not believe the Bible actually forbids spanking but I do not see a mandate, either. In my world, elevating a pro-spanking stance to a Biblical mandate is an example of a legalistic bent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-74975986980369548542008-07-16T17:05:00.000-06:002008-07-16T17:05:00.000-06:00Anonymous 7 --Thank you for using an identifying n...Anonymous 7 --<BR/><BR/>Thank you for using an identifying name. The article addresses a structural problem with SGM caused by leadership throughout the "family of churches" not some individual problem. The discussion with Mrs. Baker involves a specific case where that structural problem had real and damaging impact. <BR/><BR/>Now you have asked us to turn this over to God and wait. But God doesn't think that is the correct way to deal with false teachers:<BR/><BR/>Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds (2John 9-11)<BR/><BR/> "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil." (Romans 16:17-9)<BR/><BR/>"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." (2Cor 6:14-7)<BR/><BR/>As for some of your other comments, other religious leaders from other denominations have been perfectly capable of working things out on this blog. SGM and <A HREF="http://www.visionforumministries.org/projects/ncfic/" REL="nofollow">NCFIC</A> are the ones that have proven singularly incapable of addressing complaints. Legitimate leaders when they hear about abusive practices want to find out how it happened, and make sure it doesn't happen again. <BR/><BR/>Finally as far as non believers I have a post with a list of their issues: <A HREF="http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/2008/05/what-people-under-30-think.html" REL="nofollow">problems with the church</A>. Honestly addressing problems and working towards solutions I've seen mentioned 0 times as the reason people don't come to Christ. This is frankly a BS excuse that authoritarian churches use so that their misconduct is not publicly addressed.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-32716246987320522008-07-16T16:20:00.000-06:002008-07-16T16:20:00.000-06:00I've been scanning these posts as a result of a se...I've been scanning these posts as a result of a search gone off the original path. :) I can't help but comment.<BR/> We have been part of SGM for 21 years. As in any movement or affiliation (or even denomination) of churches, no church is the same, and no group of leaders is perfect. The reason we have chosen joyfully to remain in SG is because every issue we have ever brought up with leadership (three different churches, mind you) has been graciously, thoughtfully, prayerfully, and scripturally addressed.<BR/> We did not check our brains at the door. My husband studied theology in graduate school and maintains a working knowledge and growing understanding of evaluating Scripture carefully and exegetically (with more sources than just SG souces).<BR/><BR/> Over time, SG tendencies toward legalism in certain areas have certainly occurred, yet they have been adjusted and brought into balance. The time-table for these adjustments may not have been as quick as they should have been, but then, we are dealing with mere humans. <BR/><BR/>We would not be surprised to see more "imbalances" occur over time, but would be even more surprised to see any unscriptural imbalances unaddressed by SG leadership. <BR/><BR/>We empathize with the difficulties many have faced with SGM, but be aware, that such difficulties occur in any church in any movement. It is the nature of mankind. So we trust in God and continue to pray for wisdom and humility as we seek to serve in faulty local churches for the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is an amazing thing that God desires that we participate in the proclamation of the Gospel at all!<BR/><BR/>In such a case of parenting philosophies being addressed as unbiblical or of doctrinal importance, you can certainly see in Scripture where the "rod" is referred to many times to bring correction to a sinning child. SG's view of spanking seeks to be in line with biblical passages addressing correction and discipline. If a family chooses not to spank, SG would see that, as would we, as a possible disregard or dismissal of scriptural principles of correction of children.<BR/> Our personal experience in SG churches reveals leadership that has been careful not to hastily address such things as "of doctrinal importance," yet careful to address what needs to be addressed to protect the integrity of Scripture. (Yes, folks, God does gift some as pastors and teachers for a reason.) Unfortunately, the world's influence over biblical parenting is evident in today's culture - even Christian culture. SG wishes to guard against that. We are grateful for it.<BR/><BR/>This desire to "guard" may be out of whack at times, but again, we have not seen over 21 years where issues such as the ones addressed here have not been brought into scrutiny and adjustment in the movement as a whole. Again, "as a whole." You will undoubtedly find pockets of legalism in individual churches. So it goes everywhere. <BR/><BR/>The unfortunate thing about blogs is the inability of opposing sides to work out conflicts biblically. I doubt SG leaders are spending all their time reading these sorts of blogs - even when invited. They are busy, busy, busy caring for their churches. I do know that when we have taken the time to meet with pastors to work out things we may be in conflict about, that they have been more than willing to hear us, listen, and work through things biblically. Not perfectly, but to the best of their ability. We are not perfect, either. Neither are all of you. Let us not forget.<BR/><BR/>Many of you have stated that your attempts to work out things biblically have gone awry. I am sad for that. (Again, I am only hearing one side - your side.) I can only leave you all with the reminder that vengeance belongs to the Lord, and he will repay. Sins are sure to be found out - regardless of who committed them; pastors or lay people. Are you willing to trust God to work these things out? <BR/><BR/>We understand the delicate balance between just letting God and letting go...and personal responsibility.<BR/>However, we would appeal that you guard more carefully against slander, seek God more and lean on Him and wait on Him. Waiting often looks like silence and stillness before God. To shift from this to becoming vigilantes of justice is a slippery slope at best. None of us can really pursue such things with pure motives. This post has undoubtedly been posted with impure motives. :(<BR/><BR/>Ultimately, the reputation of the Gospel will be tarnished in such forums as these if we are careless. The propensity toward carelessness is too great, perhaps. <BR/><BR/>Imagine how many unbelievers have stumbled upon these sorts of blog sites only to confirm their belief that there is no real difference between believer and unbelievers. Do we really want to portray religion as the Pharisaical institution unbelievers see it as? Backbiting, bashing, sarcasm in the name of God, etc., all confirm this worst of conclusions.<BR/><BR/> We do not see anywhere in the Bible where slander, gossip, criticism (unconstructive) complaining, etc. is condoned. <BR/><BR/>Those offended, please consider going back to the offenders. If this seems impossible, please consider submitting the issues to God and God alone. He is capable of far more than we can ever ask or conceive (or DO or blog). A public blog forum for bringing church correction to elders, as "Public" as it may be (according to Matthew), is not limited to addressing a particular church body and over-stretches, perhaps, the boundaries of what Matthew 18 intends. Just my fifty cents.<BR/><BR/>Respectfully and Not Intending to Comment Again - Anonymous 7 :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-50705281057687152572008-07-12T20:50:00.000-06:002008-07-12T20:50:00.000-06:00I understand.I'm also fairly relaxed and it takes ...I understand.<BR/><BR/>I'm also fairly relaxed and it takes a lot to offend me. If you have additional questions, please feel free to ask.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-76681623685466540872008-07-11T19:52:00.000-06:002008-07-11T19:52:00.000-06:00Debra --Trust me I agree with you in terms of phil...Debra --<BR/><BR/>Trust me I agree with you in terms of philosophy. Both my wife and I, happily married for about 1/2 as long as you have been, put our daughter first. I think he's absolutely 100% wrong in his parenting philosophy. I also am sorry he said something hurtful. The reason I'm trying to clarify is one thing is a clear cut abuse of scriptural authority sin the other is being unpleasant. Thanks for clarifying this for me!CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-79969843755311845002008-07-11T10:07:00.000-06:002008-07-11T10:07:00.000-06:00In spite of everything, he is a Christian man and ...In spite of everything, he is a Christian man and he didn't curse me in the true sense of the word.<BR/><BR/>He was, however, not particularly kind to my husband and me at that time. We (the pastors and me as opposed to dh and me,) had serious disagreements with regard to the treatment of infant children. That particular pastor bought into the Ezzo teaching that instructed parents to make sure their infants (from the newborn period on,) knew that the husband-wife relationship took priority over the parent-child relationship.<BR/><BR/>We, on the other hand, believe that the best way for parents to model "other-centeredness" was to actually defer to the needs of others especially helpless new babies. As children grow older and more independent, they learn how to be unselfish. <BR/><BR/>To suggest our marriage wouldn't last ten years because we parented our children differently was a low blow. <BR/><BR/>At this time, our children are older and we are enjoying one another, I think more so because we waited so long to get to this point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-4876944836254645642008-07-10T18:35:00.000-06:002008-07-10T18:35:00.000-06:00Debra --Just so I'm clear what the last comment me...Debra --<BR/><BR/>Just so I'm clear what the last comment meant. It wasn't actually a curse in that sense, it was a prediction. I read you as saying he was being a rude jerk but didn't actually cross the line into cursing? Is that correct?CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-59569158756408912712008-07-10T06:47:00.000-06:002008-07-10T06:47:00.000-06:00I can appreciate the difference although it felt p...I can appreciate the difference although it felt pretty darn bad at the time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com