tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post850898819322749739..comments2023-10-12T05:32:43.976-05:00Comments on Church Discipline: Calvin's 500th birthdayCD-Hosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-5009823816540250662009-07-17T14:47:44.739-06:002009-07-17T14:47:44.739-06:00I.E. did Christ receive exactly what all the saved...<i>I.E. did Christ receive exactly what all the saved deserve or was the suffering real but mainly a demonstration of God's displeasure.</i><br />Well, why not both? If the smallest sin separates us from God by making us unfit to be in His presence, then doesn’t it follow that all of us deserve to die rather than be in God’s presence forever? So Christ really suffers and really dies as a demonstration of what we deserve. I have an Engineering degree not a Seminary degree so maybe I’m missing something when I can’t see why penal substitution and government atonement by the federal head are mutually exclusive.<br /><br />Theologians don’t like free grace (great term by the way) because it creates a lot of hard questions for them. My favorite answers are pretty simple. Of course, grace is free. If you have to earn it, then Christ died for nothing. To say that you can force the indwelling Holy Spirit out of your existence by your choices or actions says that you are somehow stronger than God.<br /><br />Of course saved people commit all kinds of heinous acts, many of them in the name of God. It is an even bigger win for Satan to so deceive a Christian. Being saved doesn’t increase your intelligence or suddenly give you a perfected decision making process (although many find their apparent intelligence and decision making processes improved by listening to and following God’s Word).Icy Mt.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04041841213313766221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-68591366492359956002009-07-17T10:38:12.754-06:002009-07-17T10:38:12.754-06:00Hi Icy --
Good post.
I like Ashby's:
Prio...Hi Icy --<br /><br />Good post. <br /><br />I like Ashby's:<br /><br />Prior to being drawn and enabled, one is unable to believe… able only to resist.<br />Having been drawn and enabled, but prior to regeneration, one is able to believe… able also to resist.<br />After one believes, God then regenerates; one is able to continue believing… able also to resist.<br />Upon resisting to the point of unbelief, one is unable again to believe… able only to resist.<br /><br />Also what never gets mention is <br />Penal substitution (reformed) vs. governmental atonement.<br /><br />I.E. did Christ receive exactly what all the saved deserve or was the suffering real but mainly a demonstration of God's displeasure. <br /><br />I agree with you on the final P thing, that's what MacArthur calls "free grace". Essentially the belief the you are eternal saved if you asked for it and were thought you were sincere at the time you asked. That notion was popular 20 years ago, never with theologians but it was a popular belief.<br /><br /><br /><br />[edit]CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-21961231933571645602009-07-17T09:01:18.226-06:002009-07-17T09:01:18.226-06:00Who says us Christians have to be Calvinist or Arm...Who says us Christians have to be Calvinist or Armenian only?<br /><br />I felt compelled to add the Armenian view of TCURP (not quite as pretty as TULIP). <b>T</b>otal Depravity: People cannot respond to the gospel without God’s help. But God has enabled all people to respond to his convicting influence. <b>C</b>onditional Election: God's election of people to salvation is conditioned upon their faith response to the gospel. <b>U</b>nlimited Atonement: Christ died for the whole human race. <b>R</b>esistible Grace: It is God’s will that all people be saved, but some may say no. <b>P</b>resent Assurance of Salvation: We can have present assurance of salvation, but can also lose our salvation for various reasons.<br /><br />I think that many of the emergent church, evangelical movement and even the Baptists are Armenian up to that final P and then switch to what appears to be Calvinism (i.e. you cannot lose your salvation). However, they tend to believe in immutable salvation for a different reason based on passages like John 10:28-29: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." God’s grace may be resistible but once you have accepted it, it covers all sins, past, present and future.Icy Mt.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04041841213313766221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-17569338618540079932009-07-12T09:09:53.670-06:002009-07-12T09:09:53.670-06:00Bill --
I doubt a majority are Calvanist. Probab...Bill --<br /><br />I doubt a majority are Calvanist. Probably the most common are liberal Christian. But it is popular and the reason is that Calvan presented an incredibly systematic and well defined system. The pieces come together wonderfully. Most of your systematic theologies are Calvanist in their orientation. <br /><br />Where Calvanism fails is on the practical front. Lindon's point regarding the Puritans is a great example. The system started to collapse in serious ways one generation after they came and by two was showing huge signs of stress. You ended up with something like church membership, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_way_covenant" rel="nofollow">half-way covenant</a> where you basically had a large number of regular attendees who liked the church for social reasons but didn't consider themselves saved. This led to the American evangelical movement which rejected reformed doctrines. Baptists and Methodists exploded. <br /><br />Professors aren't as practical, so it makes sense that a better system in theory that's worse in practice would appeal to them at least IMHO.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-84916618301095743562009-07-11T22:08:02.006-06:002009-07-11T22:08:02.006-06:00I don't quite agree on your point by point des...I don't quite agree on your point by point description of the unbiblicalness of TULIP; but I do think Calvinism is unbiblical.<br /><br />I've heard that the majority of seminary professors and writing theologians are Calvinists - I don't have a citation for this or know for sure if it is true - but if it is; I don't understand how or why! Once I was having a disagreement with a friend about atonement and he sent me to a paper by John Piper about it. It made no sense to me; the starting presupposition was limited atonement so the conclusion was the same. I hope others don't find the same flaws when I argue for unlimited atonement!<br /><br />On the other hand, I've heard Bruxy Cavy quoted as saying "We'll all die believing a thousand heresies." If you asked for Jesus to forgive you in faith, we should be able to politely disagree about the rest. I think the Apostle Paul demonstrates this really well in Philippians 1 when he says that he rejoices when Christ is preached - even if from those with false motives.<br /><br />CD-Host, you alluded to the positive contributions of Calvin as a theologian in your original post. What do you see in that category?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14344903965415841301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-71260073475498007762009-07-11T17:13:43.434-06:002009-07-11T17:13:43.434-06:00"Normally the problem for Reformed Christiani..."Normally the problem for Reformed Christianity is the theology for grandchildren. In other words if membership is difficult then the children of believers become attenders but not part of the session (i.e. they aren't into lordship). But that means the grandchildren can't be baptized. So they go off and join sects that actively baptize adults or the parents join sects which accept their baptism as being membership."<br /><br />I have a friend who did his doctoral thesis on the Puritans and said this is oneof the reasons they died out.Lindonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12655601618953971431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-3890615024009112612009-07-11T16:51:35.447-06:002009-07-11T16:51:35.447-06:00Hi Kevin --
I'm not sure. My guess is no it ...Hi Kevin --<br /><br />I'm not sure. My guess is no it burns out when the non lordship version shows up. The same way that The current form of Calvinism is still fairly elitist. The elite are now building institutional support in the last decade: ESV, calvanist denominations, ongoing take over of the SBC.... <br /><br />Normally the problem for Reformed Christianity is the theology for grandchildren. In other words if membership is difficult then the children of believers become attenders but not part of the session (i.e. they aren't into lordship). But that means the grandchildren can't be baptized. So they go off and join sects that actively baptize adults or the parents join sects which accept their baptism as being membership.<br /><br />But this is a surge in Reformed Baptists, not Presbyterians. Their problem has always been an inability to cooperate and work together and thus grow. Perhaps where it goes is essentially replaces IFBC for fundamentalism and levels out at around 4% of the population?CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-65240267481267478832009-07-11T16:29:39.596-06:002009-07-11T16:29:39.596-06:00I wonder if this trend will level off after the 50...I wonder if this trend will level off after the 500th anniversary is over?Kevin A. Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05052005947620751144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-60713951141274781392009-07-11T10:04:55.797-06:002009-07-11T10:04:55.797-06:00This worship of Calvin has reached epic proportion...This worship of Calvin has reached epic proportions and is cause for alarm. It is another aspect of the adoration of mere men instead of Christ as many attempt to be authorities over others in the Body.Lindonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12655601618953971431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-39513474618758107542009-07-10T23:37:58.282-06:002009-07-10T23:37:58.282-06:00http://www.archive.org/stream/michaelservetush00od...http://www.archive.org/stream/michaelservetush00odhn/michaelservetush00odhn_djvu.txt<br /><br />I think this book is the best I have found on the internet. I regret that I don't know if there is a copy of his Latin Bible with Servetus' notes in North America. I find little enough interest in the Pagnini Bible, but I have seen one in Toronto and I know there are others around.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-88550272366661248932009-07-10T22:33:49.571-06:002009-07-10T22:33:49.571-06:00Suzanne, I have a particular interest in Servetus,...Suzanne, I have a particular interest in Servetus, and I would interested in hearing more about his notes.J. L. Wattshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01000798494472742263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-74174367261316381182009-07-10T21:57:23.691-06:002009-07-10T21:57:23.691-06:00Servetus is of particular interest to me since I w...Servetus is of particular interest to me since I want to look more into the Pagnini 1528 Bible. Servetus edited and added notes to a Pagnini Bible in the 1540's.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-76539512361118277382009-07-10T21:06:00.136-06:002009-07-10T21:06:00.136-06:00Hi Polycarp. Thanks. Just added a link, I though...Hi Polycarp. Thanks. Just added a link, I thought I had that a while back. There were actually 3 big name heresy execution attempts under Calvin:<br /><br />Michael Servetus (whom you mentioned, burned)<br />Jacques Gruet (beheaded)<br />Sebastian Castellio (attempted but failed)<br /><br />There were 28 executions (at least some put the number at 57) for witchcraft involving Calvin.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-50585243788365902302009-07-10T19:23:57.986-06:002009-07-10T19:23:57.986-06:00Finally, some common sense on this mess of hero wo...Finally, some common sense on this mess of hero worship. <br /><br />No mention of Calvins' murder of conscious, though, with the death of Michael Servatus. <br /><br />Excellent post, CD.J. L. Wattshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01000798494472742263noreply@blogger.com