tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post6729970152691242885..comments2023-10-12T05:32:43.976-05:00Comments on Church Discipline: A defense against Patriarchy (part 1)CD-Hosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-34806560948139470832012-09-13T10:24:23.360-05:002012-09-13T10:24:23.360-05:00Please read and think about Your lord , the creato...Please read and think about Your lord , the creator, the sustainer, all knowing - God. The God who is unique, The God who can only be compared to himself, The God who does not begets and he is not begotten, The only God who is not male or female, nor he is partial to any gender. The God who is the only one who is the most just and he does not oppresses anyone in any way, and he does not like anyone who oppresses or misuse any of his creations. The only god who has the right to make laws for his creations & no one has the right to ignore them. The God who is not limited by time, not limited in strength, not limited in resources, not limited in knowledge.<br />The God who will judge people good or bad ( reward able or punishable in the afterlife) based upon their Religion; Not - Country, race, nationality, language, color, beauty, riches, education, culture - They does not help if there is anything against the law of the religion.<br />All of us will die and will return to his kingdom in the skies. Then men & women will have to go to heavens or to hells.<br />Surrender yourself to the will of god, surrender to the laws of his Religion ( In Arabic which means Islam). Pray and supplicate to your God, so that you may be guided to the real truth. Have love & fear both for your God - The only God who is to be worshiped alone ( In Arabic he [God] is - Allah ) .<br />Idol worshiping or praying to or hoping to gain rewards & blessings from other than the one true God, worshiping or praying to demi-gods or deity worshiping of animals or stars or trees or man or woman or saints or pious people, is the worst sin of all sins.<br />Showing respect to pictures / status / sculpture / mural etc showing respect to pictures / status / sculpture / mural etc, is the greatest sin of all sins. God was not born, nor is someone child of God.<br />Everything is God's creation. Nothing / no one can be compared to God (Allah) in any aspect. Only God (Allah) has the real control & Knowledge over all good or bad or any future event.<br />Thinking that God (Allah) is unjust, any law, system, or lifestyle other than by GOD is better is one of the greatest sins.<br />Thinking that, laws, systems, or lifestyle from GOD is not good anymore or cruel- is one of the greatest sins.<br />By learning and teaching our children to sacrifice our own benefits for others, we can solve many of the problems. May God help us all. Please copy and save this message for future.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11037990773294711437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-87961982953129352492012-08-28T07:20:35.497-06:002012-08-28T07:20:35.497-06:00Kevin is/was my friend, and a pacifist like I am, ...Kevin is/was my friend, and a pacifist like I am, but he's also trying to be a theonomist and along with that a Republican. He openly teaches justification by works, and doesn't bother with the nuances and ambiguities of the "federal vision".<br /><br />In the latest book on "Christian anarchism", Kevin also gets some attention as being a "minor figure" in the world of those who would rather live without the arkies.<br /><br />I Cor 15: 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feetAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-91291697027176555442012-08-27T18:16:57.807-06:002012-08-27T18:16:57.807-06:00Hi Mark welcome to the blog! No I don't know ...Hi Mark welcome to the blog! No I don't know Kevin Craig but I just read his site. I use Patriarchy for those who go well beyond Complementarianism and Kevin Craig qualifies. He argues that all the functions of the state including criminal justice / capital punishment belong to patriarchs who are kings. He arguably goes considerably further than most other patriarchs in the degree of father rule he would permit but I think it is fair to group him in, though as a minor figure.<br />CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-85536588913137612932012-08-27T12:15:46.262-06:002012-08-27T12:15:46.262-06:00Do you know Kevin Craig? he pushes a form of anarc...Do you know Kevin Craig? he pushes a form of anarchy which he calls "patriarchy". I like the anarchism part, the patriarchy not so much.<br /><br />http://kevincraig.us/anarchism.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-53193254922206324992010-08-07T08:42:14.090-06:002010-08-07T08:42:14.090-06:00Hello Neo --
Welcome to the blog. You are presen...Hello Neo --<br /><br />Welcome to the blog. You are presenting an interesting view regarding Freemasonry which arguably fits in better with <a href="http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/2007/12/defense-against-patriarchy-part-6.html" rel="nofollow">part 6</a> of this series where I address the 18th century movements directly. You might want to take a look at part 6.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-34756504761849286722010-08-06T05:52:49.187-06:002010-08-06T05:52:49.187-06:00Femdom is a tool of feminism to enslave men and ma...Femdom is a tool of feminism to enslave men and make them weak and submissive.The funny thing is those who do femdom many a times revert back to other extreme-maledom.It does’nt take much intelligence to understand that this BDSM is only a sexual perversion designed to cause physical and mental trauma to people engaged in it and thus cause degeneration of society.Masonic(freemasons) writers for the last 200 years have written feminist and femdom sexual utopia in protestant countries under the secret guidance of catholic Jesuit preists.They promoted feminism and these sexual perversions only to destroy your protestant nations.Freemasonry is a secret society developed by Jesuits to enslave men and women of protestant countries through feminism and femdom and thus destroy protestantism secretly,results of which you can clearly see in mainline protestantism today.That is why you see masonic lodges only in predominantly protestant areas,never in catholic areas.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-74597407500714447772008-08-05T07:06:00.000-06:002008-08-05T07:06:00.000-06:00Debra --Glad to see you got an account for yoursel...Debra --<BR/><BR/>Glad to see you got an account for yourself! I think you'll get the biggest kick out of the 2nd half of part 5. Where "courtship" came from.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-69004497350819063282008-08-05T06:41:00.000-06:002008-08-05T06:41:00.000-06:00Thank you for taking the time and doing the resear...Thank you for taking the time and doing the research to address the issue of Patriarchal forces at work within many Christian circles.<BR/><BR/>I sincerely believe this patriarchal influence is behind a lot of abusive practices. The more we know about it and the more it is openly discussed, the better for all of us. <BR/><BR/>I have been in a Patriarchal systam and it is, indeed, oppressive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-14409989933584423652007-07-27T15:44:00.000-06:002007-07-27T15:44:00.000-06:00What a horrible post...I'll try to read through th...What a horrible post...I'll try to read through the other two...how you "don't write about theology" yet make distinctly theological claims is quite an exercise.<BR/><BR/>If I wanted to critique your post without writing theologically, it would look like this:<BR/><BR/>....................... THE ENDAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-66242727638341053092007-07-10T12:50:00.000-06:002007-07-10T12:50:00.000-06:00David T --I'm not sure if I follow how your August...David T --<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure if I follow how your Augustine reference disproves my point? If anything Aquinas is actually taking a fairly moderate position on the issue. <BR/>I think you might want to take a look at the two intro articles. This apologetic is written for woman (who essentially hold fairly right wing views) as a defense against some men who hold slightly more to the right views. Its a debate between the complimentarians and the patriarchals not one with the 2 of them against the feminists. <BR/><BR/>For example its not should there be woman priests but rather should husbands act as priests (i.e. serve communion) to their wives. Or you political office one is a good example (I think). I think the complimentarians are not opposed to woman in high political office. Moreover I don't know that the church was uniformally opposed to woman in office. To pick an extreme example, Joan of Arc is a saint.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-81114144732357135452007-07-10T09:59:00.000-06:002007-07-10T09:59:00.000-06:00Perhaps I'm just unclear on what you mean by Patri...Perhaps I'm just unclear on what you mean by Patriarchy, but it seems that Aquinas was extremely familiar with patriarchy within the family (see <A HREF="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5064.htm" REL="nofollow">his answers to the first few articles of Q.64 of the supplement to Part III</A>). <BR/><BR/>I'm open to hearing about how new issues have arisen which the ancients didn't have to face. But, it seems like the ancients certainly did deal with similar issues that would be relevant--I mean, if women weren't speaking inappropriately in Church, then Paul wouldn't have had to write in order to say "hey, don't talk like that," right? So, I think you've set up a pretty massive hurdle for yourself in saying "People from hundreds (or thousands) of years ago are do not have a position in a modern debate since they don't share our assumptions, nor are they confronted with our issues." I don't think anyone's made the claim that ancients thought <I>exactly</I> the way that we do on this issues. The claim is just that, on questions like "Is the husband the head of his house? Should men and not women be the highest (human!) spiritual authorities in the church? Should men, not women, hold public offices and be political leaders?" the ancients would all agree and contemporary complementarians/patriarchalists (don't think that's even a term, but guess I'll use it :) would agree with them. <BR/><BR/>So there's not 100% identity of positions, but there is identity of positions on an important range of theological and practical questions.David Talcotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04222635028681706376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-45527565361432069942007-07-08T20:10:00.000-06:002007-07-08T20:10:00.000-06:00Simplegifts --Well if we are talking (off the reco...Simplegifts --<BR/><BR/>Well if we are talking (off the record) theology here, then there is also a problem with the language in 1Cor 14:33-36. It sounds like 1Tim which is non Pauline. I don't think Paul wrote this at all. This strikes me as having much more to do with 2nd century issues. ( http://www.bibletexts.com/versecom/1co14v33.htm ). <BR/><BR/>I'm also not sure what you meant by, " just that it strikes me as incongruous for a complementarian man to be saying this"CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-10782967993322584162007-07-08T19:17:00.000-06:002007-07-08T19:17:00.000-06:00cd-host, I find these two, very short pages, by Pe...cd-host, I find these two, very short pages, by Peter Leithart (who is no egalitarian by any means) fascinating, in that he claims Paul's command for women to be silent actually frees women to speak. I don't know enough about history to speak about your blog entry, nor take a firm stand for or against what Leithart is saying -- just that it strikes me as incongruous for a complementarian man to be saying this: <A HREF="http://www.leithart.com/archives/002773.php" REL="nofollow">Here</A>, and <A HREF="http://www.leithart.com/archives/001552.php" REL="nofollow">and here</A> are the articles. Very short reads. The one on the silence of women in the church is especially interesting to me.simplegifts3https://www.blogger.com/profile/08000500581749760466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-65463374432456343752007-07-08T18:57:00.000-06:002007-07-08T18:57:00.000-06:00Corrie -Polygamy is an interesting one because the...Corrie -<BR/><BR/>Polygamy is an interesting one because the bible itself doesn't really condemn it. On the other hand Christianity has a long history of wiping the practice out very aggressively. With the exception of Luther (who was still rather opposed) I can't think of a single major protestant leader that's has even been tolerant of polygamy on an ongoing basis.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-86784228450193384202007-07-08T13:24:00.000-06:002007-07-08T13:24:00.000-06:00CD Host,Interesting way of looking at all of this....CD Host,<BR/><BR/>Interesting way of looking at all of this. I don't think I have ever read where someone has laid this topic out as you have but I would think it be worth our look into history to see if the patriarchy of today is actually the patriarchy of the past.<BR/><BR/>The other part of this is that taking multiple wives was very much an accepted part of patriarchy. I wonder how this aspect all fits in and why that is no longer the case with today's patriarchy?<BR/><BR/>As Jen pointed out, the MCOI article discusses the Roman position that fathers were law and they could decide whether or not a child lived or died. The wife had a status of that of a slave. <BR/><BR/>">Or David Gray, "For 2000 years all Christians have understood scripture's plain teaching on the matter. Now Roger Nicole has discovered that no Christian before the last couple of decades understood scripture. But he does. That only appeals to those who want a fig leaf for their rebellion."<BR/><BR/>Hi David,<BR/><BR/>I just want to be clear. Are you saying that the quote only deals with women as pastors and not to patriarchy? That this quote does not hold true in regard to wider issue of patriarchy?Corriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13771878099332439981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-39578915585353543722007-07-08T12:45:00.000-06:002007-07-08T12:45:00.000-06:00Jen - It comes from the general interest in church...Jen - <BR/>It comes from the general interest in church discipline. Pretty much, my specific interest is what I said in the introduction. Patriarchal biblical arguments are being used to demean people. I'm good at apologetics and so this is something I can help to counter.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-91607945829512114842007-07-08T12:33:00.000-06:002007-07-08T12:33:00.000-06:00David -The reason I quoted you was because it was ...David -<BR/>The reason I quoted you was because it was in the context of a debate about feminism and patriarchy and it had the 2000 year line explicitly. Further it was occurring on a blog of a well known apologist for patriarchy. In other words I took it broadly. I'll delete if you object, I'm not looking to quote anyone saying anything they don't believe.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-43951122303312086982007-07-08T11:46:00.000-06:002007-07-08T11:46:00.000-06:00>Or David Gray, "For 2000 years all Christians hav...>Or David Gray, "For 2000 years all Christians have understood scripture's plain teaching on the matter. Now Roger Nicole has discovered that no Christian before the last couple of decades understood scripture. But he does. That only appeals to those who want a fig leaf for their rebellion."<BR/><BR/>Flattered as I am to be quoted the quote you selected was addressed to the subject of women's ordination, not patriarchy. Presumably you do understand the distinction between the two, which while related, are not the same, patriarchy being the wider of the two in application. If you do understand this distinction then I'm at a loss to know why you quoted me as you did. If you don't understand the distinction you should probably leave the subject alone.<BR/><BR/>Now you may well be able to find a quote from me addressing the subject of patriarchy or if I found sufficient time on my hands I could manufacture one but till then let's be straightforward in the matter, please.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-373425720288771023.post-43970093106519551222007-07-08T11:10:00.000-06:002007-07-08T11:10:00.000-06:00CD Host, this sounds like a fascinating journey th...CD Host, this sounds like a fascinating journey through history. I will admit that I know nothing about the history that you have outlined, but I just finished talking to Don Veinot of Midwest Christian Outreach, who is also exposing Patriarchy, and he says that there was indeed an ancient period of what was called "father rule," which is very similar to today's patriarchy movement. You might want to consider including that in your research as well.<BR/><BR/>This sounds like a lot of work. I'm curious as to your interest in it.Jen Fishburnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08240505611077771944noreply@blogger.com