NA28

The USB/NA27 is the "Greek" behind most of the major bibles on the market today. Maybe I'm being too hopeful but it looks like we may have the basis for the NA28. In addition to some of the remaining issues since the 1990s, we also have extensive work on gnosticism which is becoming more mainstream. The UBS produces the Novum Testamentum Graece, currently the Nestle-Aland version (NA) though likely to pick a different name next time.

But a new manuscript of Paul's work (in coptic) showed up with the Gospel of Judas. Now all the followers of this blog know the Copts are the cool Christians in the Ancient world:

"Item 3 is fragments of a papyrus codex from the 5th (possibly 4th) century AD containing at least some of the letters of St. Paul. The leaves are approximately 24 cm tall and 16 cm broad. The scribe outlined his writing area with pink chalk. His handwriting is cursive in style, as though somewhat quickly written. The pages are numbered above the center of a single column of writing, the highest page number observed being 115. There are some nearly complete leaves of the codex preserved, and many smaller fragments, which might be reassembled into at least a sizeable portion of the codex. There is also part of a leather binding (either the front or the back cover, including the spine, lined with scrap papyrus) which probably, though not certainly, belongs to this codex. The contents identified with certainty are Hebrews, Colossians, and 1 Thessalonians. The texts are in a non-standard form of the Sahidic dialect."

I have admit this is a bit over my head. But... I would love to see work start on an NA28. About 60 years ago Brauer's proposed the idea that early Christianity was a diverse group of sects which gradually coalesced to orthodoxy, rather than Orthodoxy existed from the beginning and alternate sects split off from it. This proposal far better explains the evidence that existed then and the last 60 years has only seen more confirmation. A Novum Testamentum Graece created with that presupposition (or at the very least not the presupposition of orthodoxy) will be a major step forward. I'm hoping the coptic above throws us over the line to get cracking on a new version.

Anyone want to comment?

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Addendum: I got a comment on another blog about this. Appears work on the NA28 is underway as part of the Editio Critica Maior. You can see a list of differences here.

Literal vs. Dynamic

Sean Harrison from Tyndale (NLT Study Bible) reposted three terrific examples of difference between being literal and capturing meaning, in a recent talk (notes online). That is why formal translations don't get you "closer to the original meaning" than dynamics do. I have a bunch of examples but these are so pithy there were worth repeating:

The first was in Spanish (from Mark Strauss)
Original: ¿Cómo se llama?
Literal Translation: “How yourself call?”
Formal Translation: “How do you call yourself?”
Dynamic Translation: “What is your name?”

Then one in French (from Mark Taylor)
Original: mon petit chou
Literal: “my little cabbage”
Dynamic: “my dear”

Finally one in English to English which shows the problem of literal vs. dynamic (Mark Strauss)
Original: “By the way, I’m hitting the road at the crack of dawn.”
Literal: “Along the path, I’m punching the street at the fissure of sunrise.”
Dynamic: “I wanted to let you know, I’m departing very early in the morning.”

REB / NRSV review

I ran across a little gem on the web today. The October 1990 edition of Theology Today is online. This issue contained a symposium on the (then) recently released NRSV and REB bibles. Both are all purpose bibles (liturgical, bible study, regular reading) which I think is a bad idea because what is needed for one use is often the opposite of what is needed for another, the tension is unresolvable. The NRSV is an excellent formal translation and my recommendation for people who currently use the ESV who don't want Calvinism and sexism read into the text. It has my favorite all purpose study bible the NISB, If I were to have to recommend a single all purpose translation the REB would be it, and the NEB (its predecessor) is my strong recommendation as a second translation for readers. So I was excited lets dig in.

The NSRV and The REB: A New Testament Critique By Burton H. Throckmorton, Jr.
He starts off by commenting that the NRSV left behind the KJV cadences, which allowed for a translation that sounds much more modern. He is very complementery on how well the NRSV handled the gender inclusion issue, feeling they got the balance right. He is harsh in their handling of verb tense, feeling they stayed much to close to the KJV/RSV (which obliterates the subtles of tense in the Greek).
On the REB he felt they took Dodd's paraphrases from the NEB that worked well and kept them while returning to more traditional translation when they didn't work out. He feels their handling of gender neutral is haphazard doing it in entirely inconsistent ways. He also lists about a dozen common words: wrath, sinners, flesh that the REB is completely inconsistent of its treatment of. He comments that the REB inhereted from the NEB the excellent handling of durative verbs. He closes with commenting (as do many others) on how well the REB captures the literary aspects of the Hebrew and Greek.

Translating For The Reader By Robert G. Bratcher
This is a negative review of both translations and very well written. He attacks both translations for failing to be either faithful to the text or clearly understandable, and both for being far too constrained by tradition. It is hard to summarize because he jumps from verse to verse presenting examples.
He opens with a complex passage showing how the two translation handle a metaphor that assumes cultural knowledge. The KJV captures the original, "And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil". A methaphor that is unclear to most readers. The CEV translates this by dropping the metaphor and just interpreting (the NLT uses a similar approach), "I'll search Jerusalem with lamps and punish those people who sit there unworried while thinking, 'The LORD won't do anything, good or bad'." The NIV/TNIV handles this in an interesting way by just translating it twice. So the TNIV has, "At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps and punish those who are complacent, who are like wine left on its dregs, who think, 'The LORD will do nothing, either good or bad.'" With that background here is what Bratcher wrote,

Zeph. 1:12 is a case in point. RSV had "I will punish the men who are thickening upon their lees." What in the world does that mean? NRSV has "I will punish the people who rest complacently on their dregs." This is a bit more intelligible but is liable to be understood quite literally of derelicts on Skid Row. Was the prophet denouncing drunkenness? That is what NEB would have made us believe: "I will … punish all who sit in stupor over the dregs of their wine." REB, however, by introducing a simile to clarify the Hebrew metaphor, says: "I shall punish … all who are ruined by complacency like wine left on its lees." This is certainly an improvement and gives the reader a hint as to what the prophet was talking about.

The NRSV and The REB: A Feminist Critique By Carole R. Fontaine
Her phrasing of the problem with gender neutral bibles is excellent, "Translation committees are charged with the faithful transmission of a text in which a male god relates primarily to his male followers." She spends the majority of the article looking at how they handle various verses related to male imagery of God and even Deut. 32:18 (where there is female imagery of God used). She advocates the REB for public reading and the NRSV for formal study.

Musings of a Translator By Patrick D. Miller
He contrasts the gender neutral work on this mainstream translation with his earlier work on the Inclusive Language Lectionary. A few interesting comments, for example he is worried that the trend towards translation flipping (in this case moving from the RSV to the NRSV) would result in more biblical illiteracy. He also talks about the change in the NRSV committee, the original members wanted to be very conservative in changing the RSV while near the end the newer members wanted to strike off aggressively.

Translators and The Gender Gap By Herbert G. Grether
This article is a statisical analysis of the gender inclusive issue.
I'm reproducing the results here. These are a series of contrasts between versions from a generation early vs. "recent" (80s-90) versions:

Occurrences of "anthropos" (men/humanity) in the New Testament 100 instances unquestionable gender inclusive, when they translated gender inclusive:

• Jerusalem Bible (1966)-48%; New Jerusalem Bible (1985)-93%
• New American Bible (1970)-40%; New American Bible (1986)-95%
• New English Bible(1970)-31%; Revised English Bible (1989)-69%
• Revised Standard Version (N.T., Second Edition, 1971)-14%; New Revised Standard Version (1990)-100%.

Sampling 50 instances of such gender inclusive uses of huioi (sons/children) unquestionable gender inclusive in original:

• JB-38%; NJB-72%
• NAB-44%; NAB Revised N.T.-88%
• NEB-52%; REB-64%
• RSV-4%; NRSV- 100%

Sampling of 50 instances of adelphos (brothers/christian community) referring to whole Christian community:

• JB-O%; NJB-O%
• NAB-O%; NAB Revised N.T.- 0%
• NEB-26%; REB-66%
• RSV-O%; NRSV-100%

He applauds that with these hundreds of changes in new version "Women are more clearly seen in the New Testament as joint heirs of the grace of life under God, and as full partners in the human adventure."

10 really good bibles you may not know about

Brown and Comfort Interlinear Best Formal NT Translation
A fantastic bible for those people who want a literal translation. Most interlinears are essentially reading assistants to the Greek. But Brown and Comfort managed to do the impossible create an interlinear that is accurate and yet reads as smoothly as a standard formal translation. Which means that you can actually read it verse by verse like you would a "normal bible" and thus have the most accurate formal translation of the NT bar none. The Greek and the NRSV are presented on the same page for those wanting more or less formal respectively. Even better this book is smallish, "pocket sized" so it can fit comfortably along with a bible right in a bible case for people who want to use a mainstream translation and "check the greek" in a portable format. In keeping with that goal, it covers textual variants in the Greek (generally from UBS commentery) that lead to translation variants in the translations for the KJV, NKJV, RSV, NRSV, ESV, NASB, NIV, TNIV, NEB, REB, NJB, NAB, NLT, HCSB, and indicates where they offer the alternatives in the margin. In other words this formal pairs with any of the mainstream bibles quite well. This one is a gem, and it's cheap (like $12) a no brainer purchase.


The Unvarnished New Testament by Andy Gaus Best Dynamic NT translation
By completely breaking with tradition Gaus manages to preserve the meaning of the Greek. I am continually frustrated by how bad most translations are. Bible translation has a 1600 year history that quite often works as a weight more than buoy. The New Testament is a Greek first century book written for other first century people about first century topics. Most bibles aim to "close the gap" obliterating the Greekness of the NT, including dynamic translations. Gaus doesn't. Gaus shows you what you read if you read Greek fluently. The books read wonderfully smoothly since there is no attempt at maintaining any semblance of formal translation. At the same time preserving the mysticism, philosophy and theology of the underlying Greek better than any bible I know of. He accomplishes exactly what dynamic translation aims for. There aren't many reviews on the web but google books has half of it online.

Jewish Study Bible (NJPS) OT Study Bible
NJPS is 2000 pages on just the old testament read the way conservative or reform Jews would read the bible. This is one of the Oxford study bibles but aimed at a Jewish not a Christian audience. The translation is the NJPSV (New Jewish Publication Society Version) which was influential on the NRSV's translation. Besides the copious notes it includes 200 pages of essays and tables for further understanding. It has solid scholarship with the focus on the OT. Books are remarkably clearer without having to read back into the text Paul. So for example the commentery on Ezra focus on rabbinic authority and the roles of various types of religious officials and how this would play out in Jewish history. A fantastic alternative set of notes for anyone reading the OT.

Oxford NEB study bible Best 2nd bible; REB: Best Mediating Translation
The NEB (wikipedia article) is my favorite 2nd bible. Dodd (the lead translator) does fantastic stuff in bringing out alternate shades of meaning of verses that the King James Version didn't capture. The NEB has been criticised for being "incautious" and it is. It is a version always worth checking to see how it handled various complexities. The NEB does a nice job as a mediating translation. In the end though the NEB was trapped by being a little of a lot of things: meant for liturgical use so it couldn't be to free, meant for easy reading so it couldn't be too accurate. But Dodd is brilliant and it shows. The Oxford Revised English Bible is a newer variant of the NEB which is a bit more conventional and thus suitable as a first bible in many ways the best mediating translation available. It is considered too British by most Americans but I have yet to have any trouble with it. The REB also reads outloud exceptionally well, making it a very good liturgical/preaching bible.

New Interpreter's Study Bible (NISB) Best all around Study Bible
This is an NRSV study bible with apocrypha First off the NRSV is an excellent formal translation, the standard translation English language biblical scholarship. It is also the standard for the mainline churches. The NISB (New Interpreters Study Bible) however presents areas where the NRSV was too conservative and focus a lot on translational differences so you end up with a very good translation commentary. It offer insights on historical critical textual commentery that most other study bibles would never mention for theological reasons or because they consider them "too advanced" It also has an excellent exegesis from a Liberal Christian perspective, addressing theological issues the way the Reformed Study Bible or MacArthur Study Bible would (but far more true to the text IMHO). This truly is the best "all in one" package you can buy, especially if you want a single volume study bible that isn't talking down to you or preaching to you.

Pre-Nicene New Testament: Fifty-four Formative Texts Atheist bible of choice
This is the NISB on steroids. The skeptical themes recur over and over, Price's (the translator) goal is clear to shake the New Testament "loose from the mummy-bands of familiarity". This bible is designed to make you see the bible as a textual critic does, densely loaded with every possible theory out there. If you want one compact volume of all that the harshest of critics of traditional Christianity have to offer, this is your book. This bible tosses out any sort of conventions starting with pairing every canonical bible book with a non canonical book addressing a similar theme. It organizes the books by schools and geography: so Galatians, Luke and Acts appear together far apart from Mark and Matthew.
The characters in the bible are treated as literary constructs put in by various authors to address theological objectives. John is treated as a response to Mark not a biography. The exegesis on Barnabas from Acts comes from the Epistle of Barnabas.
The translation of the texts is superb. Price has worked hard to reconstruct from a wide range of texts missing verses in fragmentary materials and doubtful sections (possible interpolations or redactions) are given in italics. Footnotes are placed strategically and provide a very illuminating commentary on the text. There is a survey of higher criticism of the Bible at the end that is very helpful to the reader. A reader of this book can see the influence of Greek and Egyptian thought on these new testament texts.There is nothing like it out there. Earl Doherty review


The Gnostic Paul: Gnostic Exegesis of the Pauline Letters by Elaine Pagels: Best Heretical Bible
This only covers the 7 authentic Pauline letters and Hebrews. It also only translates those verses that Pagels has something new to say on. So this is not an all in one by any means. What it is however is closest you could come to getting a study bible written by Valentinus, Heracleon, Naassene... In places she retranslates the text to show subtle meanings relative to middle/neo-Platonism that aren't apparent in most English language translations. And then the notes address how 2nd century Gnostic-Christians read this text. This book offers a view point you really can't get anywhere else in this clear and condensed a form. See the online preview. There is also a similar book for John, The Johannine Gospel in Gnostic Exegesis.


Scholars Version Gospel
Contains about 20 gospels and nothing else. Focus on preserving the tone, the feel of the underlying Greek. Most bibles are designed to have a uniform tone, but the bible itself is a small library not a book. The individual books feel very very different. Also it is one of the few references bibles that cross reference with gospels like Thomas (Greek and Coptic), Egerton gospel (1st century fragmentary gospel), gospel of Peter... It also includes a full version of Q and Signs. Genuinely original in its handling of many complex translation issues (example). If you have gotten this far in the review you probably would like this book. Don't let the "Jesus Seminar" label throw you off, this is serious scholarship handling complex issues well. The people who wrote this translation are the foremost experts in the world on the gospels.

New International Greek Testament Commentary Exegetical Commentary of Choice
Truly breathtaking. Addresses theological themes as well as to the details of the historical, linguistic, and textual context. This text presents virtually every alternative, with the scholarship behind it. Reading NIGTC is like listening in on the debates of an evangelical translation committee. NIGTC is rightly considered the most technical commentary series produced by evangelicals and it is the conservative answer to the Anchor Bible Series. It is available from Logos as part of their scholar packages.

Review of the Cornerstone Biblical Commentary

Tyndale publishes the NLTse bible. The cornerstone is a commentary series designed for a verse for verse walk through.

As they put it
The Cornerstone Biblical Commentary provides students, pastors, and laypeople with up-to-date, evangelical scholarship on the Old and New Testaments. It’s designed to equip pastors and Christian leaders with exegetical and theological knowledge to better understand and apply God’s word by presenting the message of each passage as well as an overview of other issues surrounding the text.

The book studies open up with a long introduction, an expanded version of what you would find in a good study bible. The bulk of the books consist of a small passage from the bible (about 5 verses) then a long series of translation notes followed by an exegetical commentary. The closets analogy I can think of is Zondervan's Expositor's Commentary for the NIV.

Really as I see it, this series consists of two books woven together. The translation commentary gives an "official" translation explaining the NLTse. Where they stood on various translation issues, why they translated the way they did. What is nice about it is that while it address the Greek it doesn't assume Greek. It is clearly designed to explain reasons choices were made assuming the reader isn't aware of those choices. It explains shades of meaning the translation couldn't capture because of the inevitable choices made in translation. For a church leader of a church which uses the NLT as their bible this makes the series an absolute no brainer purchase. I should point out though there is very little discussion of manuscripts or how the underlying Greek was choosen. The translation commentery will not replace a more serious original languages commentery like NIGTC. But unlike NIGTC the average Christian reader can read Cornerstone comfortably.

The second bulk of the book is commentery on the content. This definitely is theologically narrow in the sense it works strictly from a modern evangelical protestant viewpoint. The tone is "the passage means" where the meaning is what one would find in a good evangelical commentery or sermon. Alternate views of passages are not covered. Scholarly views are not covered. The introductions frequently assume all sorts of points. For example the introduction to the Pastoral Epistles mentions counter arguments to Paul's authorship in a sentence and then gives a one paragraph apologetic in response. Which is all to say that Cornerstone is a very good evangelical study bible but I can't call it a work of scholarship. What it does do though is alert the reader to where there is scholarship on various issues. Where I think Cornerstond works really well, would be for church bible study groups, and self directed study. Again since the average knowledgeable Christian can read cornerstone well they can get a great deal more depth without having to dig into various manuscripts or 30 footnotes on obscure academic papers. It also might be very useful for preparation for expository preaching, yet another reason for a church leader in an NLTse congregation to buy it. The intent is to hit the major points from an evangelical perspective, not to explicate the major points in the secondary and academic literature like Baker's or NIGTC would which is what a pastor is going to be looking for.

When I first agreed to do this review I had expected to contrast Cornerstone with Anchor. I had briefly looked at Cornerstone and the mix of mostly English theology with a light discussion of Greek, felt like the mix from Anchor. Since they included Hebrews a contrast with Buchanan's To the Hebrews, was what I had in mind, a terrific liberal vs. conservative treatment review. But as I started to write the contrast I found I really couldn't do that review. Cornerstone is a very comfortable read: pick a text, specify an important issue bring it to resolution all in 30 seconds. Anchor is much much more detailed and the conversation is happening at a higher level: text --> issue --> concepts about the issue --> further works on those concepts;  with no clear resolution the goal is knowledge not answers. I can't imagine using Anchor as the basis for a small group bible study. In the same way I can't imagine myself actually using Cornerstone as a primary commentary. I was constantly frustrated both in its historical analysis and its textual commentary by how it brushed off key alternate viewpoints. Anchor is all about the non-obvious, Cornerstone is all about making sure the reader gets the key points, NIGTC is all about the debate.

The fair comparison and the most applicable is with the Expositors commentary, as I mentioned above. Cornerstone plays the same role for the NLT that Expositors does the NIV. In terms of history I have to say Expositors is more detailed. In terms of theology and exposition Cornerstone is more detailed. But the real advantages of Cornerstone are in two areas. First the form factor, Expositors are oversized books while Cornerstone are slightly smaller than average hardcover. For use in a small group bible study I think this is major advantage. The second is the underlying translation. The NLTse is a better translation and does a better job in capturing nuance than the NIV does. Moreover the Expositors is still reacting to the debates of the 1970s in terms of replacing the KJV while for Cornerstone those are long passed, so the notes on the translation are dealing with contemporary issues.

In short what Cornerstone is really is a great expansion of the NLT Study Bible. A series of 8500 pages of discussion of scripture readable and most likely extremely useful by any interested Christian, lay leaders or a pastor. The availability of a set like this provides another good reason for a church that is looking for a translation to pick the NLT. The commentary is translation specific and viewpoint specific and makes good use of that specificity to remain focused on what the bible says. Where I can't recommend it is for someone with less applied goals.

In many ways the Tyndale's NLT lineup is a fantastically strong lineup. They have a teen bible, which is tasteful and usable a really nice collection of study and devotional bibles (upcoming post) aimed at adults and a commentery which is useful for pastors and small group church study. They also have the best NT interlinear on the market. For an evangelical church it is getting hard to see why one would pick another publisher's lineup. Zondervan is still splitting itself between the NIV and the TNIV while Tyndale is unified behind a single product. The NRSV offers this sort of breadth (and more) for the 7 sisters, but most evangelical churchs wouldn't be comfortable with those works.

Apple used to run commercials "the computers people actually use", Cornerstone could use the phrase, "the commentary people actually read".

The Brick Testament

Found a fun site called the Brick Testament, which has the bible stories illustrated by Legos. It is not the most reverential bible but I suspect my readers might get quite a kick. Enjoy.

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See also:

• Playmobile theology
  

Open challenge on presuppositional apologietic

I don't think the presuppositional apologetic will hold up to a simple empiricist argument. Are there any advocates out there that would like to try and run one through about a dozen back and fourths to give it a shot? If so post (non anonymously please).

10 reasons men should not be pastors

1. A man’s place is in the army.
2. The pastoral duties of men who have children might distract them from the responsibility of being a parent.
3. The physique of men indicates that they are more suited to such tasks as chopping down trees and wrestling mountain lions. It would be “unnatural” for them to do ministerial tasks.
4. Man was created before woman, obviously as a prototype. Thus, they represent an experiment rather than the crowning achievement of creation.
5. Men are too emotional to be priests or pastors. Their conduct at football and basketball games demonstrates this.
6. Some men are handsome, and this will distract women worshipers.
7. Pastors need to nurture their congregations. But this is not a traditional male role. Throughout history, women have been recognized as not only more skilled than men at nurturing, but also more fervently attracted to it. This makes them the obvious choice for ordination.
8. Men are prone to violence. No really masculine man wants to settle disputes except by fighting about them. Thus they would be poor role models as well as dangerously unstable in positions of leadership.
9. The New Testament tells us that Jesus was betrayed by a man. His lack of faith and ensuing punishment remind us of the subordinated position that all men should take.
10. Men can still be involved in church activities, even without being ordained. They can sweep sidewalks, repair the church roof, and perhaps even lead the song service on Father’s Day. By confining themselves to such traditional male roles, they can still be vitally important in the life of the church.

Taken from Serving Bread blog

Postmodernism, how do we know a text means?

There was a request for a follow up where we can have an actual conversation.

This reply came from Jugulum. It was censored on Team Pyro:

CD-Host,

You said,
"The meaning doesn't reside in the comments themselves, but rather in the shared culture which allows me to predict the meaning you and they are likely to assign."

OK... I can sort of accept that there is no "inherent" meaning in the particular combination of shapes that make up the content of these comments. Nor is there inherent meaning in the sounds that they map to, if we speak the comments aloud. For communication to work--or, for me to be able to predict what meaning you will assign to my words--there has to be some "shared culture", in your terminology. At the very least, we must all be English-speakers. (But that's not all there is to it. There are other degrees of "shared culture". For instance, an isolated hill-billy will misunderstand a Brit's comment about carrying a torch onto a lift. i.e., there's lingo, jargon, slang, regional dialects, etc.)

I get that much. As far as that goes, I see merit in what you're saying.

But...

Can't we still say that my comments have an inherent meaning, based on the context of my culture? Or if you don't like that phrasing: That there is a meaning which I intend--a meaning that is graspable by anyone with access to my culture? A predictable understanding, in your terminology? That there is an authorial intent, accessible to others? (I'm not claiming that anyone will necessarily perfectly understand that intent. Our horizons of cultural understanding will never perfectly coincide. But we can approach each other.)

In fact, we could say this: Any time we try to read or hear someone else's words, we should seek to understand their culture/language. When I speak, I assume that there is a shared culture. And I expect that my listeners will pay attention to that. That they'll seek authorial intent.

If you insist that there isn't inherent meaning in the collection of symbols I put together--isn't there inherent meaning in, "Those symbols, put together by Jugulum, a 21st-century American native English-speaker"?

All of this translates to, "We should seek to use an authorial-intent hermeneutic. The better we exercise such a hermeneutic, the better we will understand. (i.e., The better we achieve shared culture, the better we will be able to predict the intended or received meaning.)"

The hope for this thread is to have an open ended discussion on this. All are welcome.

Censorship and dishonesty in evangelical Christianity

So I'm coming off a debate on TeamPyro blog where bunch of my comments are being deleted to effectively shift what I'm saying. That is to say that Dan Phillips is deliberately misrepresenting me, lying in other words.

Now he is a well respected guy, and he was cavalier about it so I assume he does this sort of nonsense on a regular basis. What's interesting is not the dishonesty, but the pattern I've seen on these blogs. I have to wonder why is it that so many conservative Protestants do not consider dishonesty to be sinful in practice? This approach of casual misrepresenting what the other side has to say is considered perfectly acceptable on most conservative Christian blogs. I was just yesterday reading a review of the Voice translation which was quite good, but there was an underlying untruthfulness throughout the review. I've posted many times on the issues with the ESV supporters lying about the TNIV.

The patriarchy people have certainly done it as documented a zillion times here. Of course the various Christian cults do it. You don't see this among liberal Christians or atheists, they are generally upset if they have misrepresented someone's view, and quick to correct. You see it much more rarely among Catholics. I don't have a good theory as to why this is. So I'll open the floor up. What is your feeling about Christians blogs and integrity? Do think it is lower for conservative protestants? Is so any idea why this is? Does it come from Calvin's influence?