Showing posts with label other blogs. Show all posts
Showing posts with label other blogs. Show all posts

Tuesday, June 21, 2011

Sharper Iron on voting for excommunication

A few weeks back Sharper Iron, an IFB blog, posted an article entitled Should Congregations Vote to Discipline? The details on the case are left very vague but the procedural problems were not.  A highly respected member of the church, seen as an elder / leader was accused of a offense and under went the first 2 phases of Matthew 18, an individual confrontation and then 2-3 others confirming it.  The case was brought before the pastor who found the evidence sufficient and the matter was brought before the congregation.  They did not believe the evidence to be sufficient to warrant excommunication and voted to retain the leader.  The pastor seeing this as a lack of trust decided to leave his position and found a church plant.   Ted Bigelow wrote the article above criticizing the congregation for the apparent reason of engaging in a broader debate.

Normally I'd answer Pastor Bigelow at the blog he wrote the post on but Sharper Iron is a closed blog.  I always like to notify people when I mention them here to give them a chance to respond.  I won't be able to notify Sharper Iron, so if anyone reading this is a member please post in my name a notification in the interests of fairness.  I'll try and notify Pastor Bigelow right after authoring this.

For Pastor Bigelow the structure of discipline is:
Step 1: Individual confrontation
Step 2: 2-3 others confront and determine if the evidence is true and certain, i.e. an inquest
Step 3: The 2-3 others go to church leadership to have their inquest confirmed
Step 4: Leadership informs the congregation to carry out discipline.

What he is arguing against is:
Step 4': The congregation votes on the excommunication via. evaluation of the evidence.

And he is absolutely correct that if the inquest is sufficient then this is a valid process.  But this structure where the inquest occurs in Step 2, rather than Step 2 is evidence gathering and evidence evaluation occurs in Step 3 puts tremendous stain on the 2 or 3 others.  Naive laity, often chosen for their closeness to the principles, without leadership oversight are being asked to conduct a full gathering of evidence.   That's a lot to ask.  And that's why typically Step 2 plays the role of an indictment and Step 3 is a full on trial, where evidence is gathered in both phases.

And in this case, the structural problems that Pastor Bigelow was arguing for became evident.  The pastor of the church in question found the Step 2 evidence convincing even thought he accused was still pleading not guilty and when he advanced it to Step 4 the holes in analysis of evidence became evident.  That is evidentially the congregation found the process wanting.  It appears from the article that the congregation determined that the Step 3 verification of the evidence collected in Step 2 did not meet their standards and they thus rightly refused to carry out sentence.  The pastor in this case was being rebuked for dereliction in his duty, during his Step 3 confirmation.  And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that rebuke, it sounds deserved.  He probably should have asked the congregation for permission to return to a more formal Step 3 process rather than resign in a huff.

Pastor Bigelow focus in the article is arguing that evidence evaluation should not be occurring during Step 4, because the information is so detailed.  And he is absolutely correct, the congregation should not be confronted with detailed conflicting evidence that they have to evaluate.  Rather what they should be doing is evaluating the findings and process that occurred in Step 3.  In other words, evaluating the trial.

And what it appears the trial consisted of was Pastor heard from the witnesses, decided the accused was lying and moved on.  There is obviously not enough detail to evaluate the information provided in this anecdote, but what I see from the anecdote is the 4 step process working exactly as intended; in this case Step 4 preventing an abuse that occurred in Step 3.   Which from the description provided sounds very much like the congregation doing their duty.

Pastor Bigelow's response,  the rest of the article, is an apology for a policy that the 2 or 3 others can simply never be questioned because that is questioning their judgement, "But a careful reading of Matthew 18:17 shows that the church is not called to a higher authority—that is, to judge the person’s guilt or innocence. Instead, the Lord calls the church to submit to the prior judgment of the two or three witnesses since they have “established the evidence...The Lord Himself placed the determinative authority of church discipline in the judgment of the two or three. He tasks them, and not the church, with the responsibility to prove unrepentant sin in Matthew 18:16.”  

The entire congregation is duty bound to fall in line excommunicate the accused based on a process they found wanting.  Given this is a fundamentalist board, this involves secondary separation so the effect of the excommunication is not just cast out the member, but to cast anyone who dares associate with the member since such a person isn't recognizing their non Christian status.    And that's assuming the congregation doesn't practice tertiary separation, i.e. separating from someone who refuses to separate from someone associated with the accused).

Given the extent of that penalty the evidence and process requirements should be simply staggering.  The idea that 2 or 3 semi-random people should be empowered to conduct the investigation with essentially no meaningful oversight is beyond irresponsible.  Matthew 18 outlines a 4 step process because the church carries the sentence and thus the church is going to be collectively held responsible for this judgement.  They are the ones in weeks, years and possibly decades to come that will need to defend these finding, defend this evidence, defend this process.    The Catholic church, centuries later is still called upon to defends its actions with respect to Galileo and Luther.  A strong case for a discipline process where the entire congregation is not involved in the details can be made.  But it is the duty of the church collectively to evaluate actions that can permanently damage the church, and excommunication is one of those actions.  I did two case studies for people who would like examples of less famous cases than Luther or Galileo (Anne Le FertGresham Machen);   but the last 60 years of Fundamentalism I think work as an excellent as well.  

I think there is a genuine lack of understand of the importance of excommunication.  Once an excommunication happens the church is going to be asking others to join them in "calling for repentance" from an accused person who is going to deny the facts of the case; which means far from having to defend the facts to the congregation the church is quite likely going to have to defend the facts to world.  He's being cast out of the congregation and being publicly identified as non-Christian by the Church.  The church has to vote because the church is passing judgement.


I wrote a post a few years back on rules for due process.  I think they make it clear how much leadership needs to be involved in an excommunication and how much "dotting the i's and crossing the t's is required".  The bible establishes a standard that no evidence can be considered without multiple witnesses.  It does not establish a standard that 2 to 3 people can bind the church and force it take action. Thankfully though the comment section at Sharper Iron mainly agrees that Pastor Bigelow's process is dangerous and unbiblical.


Now the reason I say there is confusion is when Pastor Bigelow then compounds the entire thing, arguing that anyone who expresses any disagreement with the 2 or 3 is themselves guilty of serious sin, "Sadly, men’s ways can get involved in these matters and really make a mess of things. For example, congregational voting in the case of an unrepentant member could create a serious breach of faith with Christ. What if a church decides to discipline out an impenitent member by vote, but some in the church vote not to remove him? Those who vote not to remove the unrepentant member have sinned against the Lord by establishing their own verdict of innocence that opposes what the Lord already ratified."  


This seems to confuse excommunication with anathematization.  Excommunication is to declare someone no longer publicly part of the church.  Anathematization is to definitely declare that the person is damned.  Protestants generally do not believe churches are capable of anathematizing someone which is why lines like "what the Lord already ratified" seems to indicate Pastor Bigelow believes his church is in fact anathematizing and not simply excommunicating.   If he does comment here I think this is potentially the most interesting topic though it wasn't raised on Sharper Iron at all.  I suspect because the people on Sharper Iron are protestants and so simply reading excommunication even when Pastor Bigelow uses language consistent with anathematization.  (Here is a  more detailed post on the distinction).

As far as I know Pastor Bigelow is not a national figure, he just happened to be posting an article to a heavily read website.  So as much as possible I'd like to keep this away from the specifics of Grace Church of Hartford, unless he or an elder from Grace bring this up in the comments section.  

Saturday, August 1, 2009

#19


So the new top 50 list is out on Biblioblog and Church Discipline debuted at #19. Biblioblog shows the breadth.
In terms of semi/regular posters:
The Church of Jesus Christ, Polycarp (Joel Watts) #2
He Is Sufficient, ElShaddai Edwards #14 (up from 50)
Ancient Hebrew Poetry, John Hobbins #16
New Leaven, T.C. Robinson #21 (up from 40)
Suzanne’s Bookshelf, Suzanne McCarthy (breaking into top 50 from 59)

Congrads to everyone!

Monday, July 6, 2009

ESV-onlyism on the blog sphere


Nice series of posts going on right now on ESVonlyism. What is wonderful is that quite a few of them are conservative reformed Christians who are willing to address the fact that this movement is fundamentally dishonest, trying to advance sectarian interests by misrepresenting the bible. It started with the article on Aberration blog where A.Admin indicated he was so offended by a sermon of Sproul's misrepresenting the translation debate that he is walking away from him. Here is a current list, I'll update freely as I find more and please feel free to comment if I've missed any.

Aberration blog Bye bye Ligonier Ministries
The Church of Jesus Christ: Are Calvinists turning into ESV-Onlies?, The Rising ESV-Onlyism and Gender-Inclusive Language
Onward, Forward, Toward Are Reformers Becoming ESV Only?
Suzanne's Bookshelf: ESV onlyism and Sproul, ESVonlyism and Packer, Grudem and ESV onlyism, Why ESV onlyism, Reflections on ESV onlyism

For those interested in countering this:
Why the English Standard Version (ESV) should not become the Standard English Version by Mark Strauss

And of course this has been one of my hobby horses for a long time (I helped invent the phrase "ESV-onlyism") Is the ESV "essentially literal"?, Mark 1:41 and the ESV, Censorship and dishonesty in evangelical Christianity, Why be an ESV hater?.

Monday, May 4, 2009

Historical / critical method in 8 rules

April DeConick over at The Forbidden Gospels Blog is establishing 8 rules for historical study in these two posts:
Creating Jesus Ground Rules
We must say "no" to the miraculous

Essentially she is trying to answer the question of how did the early Christians come to believe Jesus was God. While the series isn't finished I suspect she is going in the direction of the typical mainstream scholarship: Jesus died, the apostles were bummed they try and make sense of it so they attach importance to his death as a center piece of their theology it gets tied to savior god myths.... I'll keep reading because Dr. DeConick is sharp.

But I thought the rules pretty good. So I'm going to repeat them here in my own words

  1. No apologetics. Study this history the way you would any other.
  2. No miracles or supernatural events.
  3. No heresy. We treat all ancient authors equally, not giving weight to the eventual winners.
  4. Religions develop in religious communities they don't fall out of the sky.
  5. All sources have human authorship.
  6. The sources were written by people in the midst of events, the authors don't understand how events will turn out.
  7. The authors are not neutral. They are writing apology and polemic and propaganda, and they need to be deconstructed as those.
  8. Our sources are dependent on the human being: physiologically, psychologically, emotionally, socially.



Friday, May 1, 2009

Review of called to communion

Adventism is a general group of denominations that came out of William Miller's groups like the Seventh Day Adventist (16million), Jehovah's witnesses (7m), and another 2 dozen smaller sects that are around another million people.

In many ways you can create a continuum from more less catholic:
Catholicism -> Episcopalian -> Presbyterian -> Congregationalist -> Baptist -> Adventist
they are sort of the opposite extreme when it comes to creeds and the traditions of the church.

To pick an example Presbyterians hold on to most church teachings, most evangelicals believe in the first 7 ecumenical councels. Adventists deny the legitimacy of every one directly deriving their interpretation from scripture and the second largest group (Jehovah's Witnesses are explicitly Arian) openly disagreeing with the first ecumenical council. William Miller had rejected the Catholic dates for various holidays and went back and used a Karaite Jewish calendar and many of the groups today won't use catholic dating for various Christian holidays. His followers called themselves "the Remnant" believing that the vast majority of the church has fallen into apostasy; that mainstream Christianity was a hindrance not a help to salvation. Through the last 150 years the Adventist heritage has included some pretty sharp language towards the Catholic church even after it went out of fashion among the rest of evangelical Christianity. Adventism has always held that the biblical prophecies regarding "Rome" aren't about the Roman state but the Roman church (as in Roman Catholic Church). They deny any connection other than a negative one to Rome. I'll link off here to the article from Catholic answers on Adventism since I think its right and gives the theme.

So another way of looking at this is these groups are not just less Catholic in practice but less Catholic in ideology. Across the board they reject key principles of the Catholic faith. It is my contention that the history of Protestantism is moving further and further away from Catholicism, seeing Catholicism as an ancient and defective form of Christianity to be replaced with a modern and more and more seeing it as a historical artifact, a form of hard supersessionism taken one step further. They have in the last 20 years also been very effective in moving out of the United States. For example the Seventh Day Adventist is roughly 80% international and growing at over 10% annually.

If one looks at Baptist theology in the last 300 years they also have had similar ideas, identifying themselves in spirit with groups like Bogomils, Albigensians, Montanist, etc.... (see History of the Baptists for a sample). "Baptists are not Protestants" was a common theme a hundred years ago. In the last hundred years with the rise of "evangelical Christianity" Protestants more and more have become baptists often in all but name and the vast majority of evangelical Christianity agrees with the baptists on every major doctrine. And the baptists themselves have moved closer to the Adventists, it is not at all unusual to hear a evangelical degraded "traditions of men", or talk of Jesus not religion. So the movement is towards denying any kind of meaningful belief in "One holy Catholic and Apostolic church". Moreover while the ties to these earlier groups from Christianson in principle are denied in practice the theology has been edging ever closer, as has been commented on multiple times (see Against the Protestant Gnostics for a good book on the convergence).

So we have a Protestant ecumenical movement that looks to make the Catholic church just another denomination. Conversely, Catholic ecumenicism seeks to reunify the churches, that is convert everyone back to Catholicism. The Protestant movement is quite popular and the view of the catholic church that is friendly while denying all of its particular claims, is popular. I was curious about how this would work in practice given these countervailing trends.

So I thought I would engage in discussion at a Catholic ecumenicalism blog entitled "Called to communion", that I had assumed would represent a good sample of the ecumenical group. Perhaps, they do, but what I found was this blog combines pride in hillbilly know nothingness with insane level of arrogance and hold that up as the grace of the infallible church. By the end of a few days on it I felt like making a donation to Jack Chick in their honor. It put me in a "Who would ever want to unify with that?" frame as far as the church. This blog is an anti-apologetic if ever I saw one. So my review is short and sweet. Stay away. This is an ecumenical blog with no interest in discussion, no intent at dialog where the people are to put it bluntly assholes.

On issue after issue after issue they were simply dead wrong on the fact. On issue after issue after issue they projected a view of the Catholic church as inherently and obviously superior. Further they actually believed themselves to be personally superior, a "we are the catholic elite". I literally had somebody tell me on the blog I had to earn the right to discuss stuff, "prove myself". Oh like the thousand plus pages I've written on church doctrine, law and history aren't proof?

Specifically their argument of the canon fell apart on dates multiple times, they had things dependent on other things that happened after; their argument on translation fell apart; and at the end their was absolute assertion that virginity pledges were part of the Jewish faith. In other words, simply factual lies defend with personal insults and attacks. A disgrace to their church. Mind you I wasn't the only one, the other protestant was having similar problems getting them to actual engage with material. There is a definite belief that a poor apologetic presented rudely becomes a better apologetic. But ultimately the specifics weren't the real problem; the real problem is that after 500 years conservative Catholics aren't willing to admit that there were structural problems that led to the reformation. A complete failure to understand that Protestants in general are happy with the outcome of the reformation, and that reunification is going to require addressing reform.

Which is interesting because the last time I was exposed to Catholic apologetics, while I thought that blog was perfectly polite my respect for the Catholic church also went down. This was due to exposure to their apologetics which I find weaker than Protestant apologetics when examined. Interestingly, one of the posters was the same on both blogs, on his own site he was capable of acting like a normal human being, but not on Called to Communion. Which ties this back to the current topic, we are discussing the negative effects of small groups with similar ideology in the previous post and I think this blog may provide an example of how this plays out. While each of these people on their own may be arrogant, limited in their breadth of theology and coming from a similar background I suspect normally they are capable of carrying on an intelligent conversation. By constructing a group composed of all people with the same frame they actually enhanced these negatives. From their own perspective they are "supporting one another" but the net effect is to make their group entirely dysfunctional for its supposed goal, which is outreach not support. So as a case study in the current topic, how small cohesive groups become abusive and oblivious to their failings, the Called to Communion blog might be of value.

___________

See also

Tuesday, February 17, 2009

Your philosophy

I took an interesting quiz the what is your world view quiz. I had a tough time answering some of the questions. But the categories are interesting. Takes about 2 minutes. Here are my results.


Materialist

100%
Existentialist

81%
Postmodernist

81%
Modernist

63%
Cultural Creative

50%
Fundamentalist

38%
Romanticist

38%
Idealist

25%

Monday, January 5, 2009

What is your theology quiz

Just tried this this quiz which tests your theology. The results are interesting:

Roman Catholic

75%
Classical Liberal

75%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan

64%
Modern Liberal

61%
Emergent/Postmodern

57%
Reformed Evangelical

50%
Charismatic/Pentecostal

46%
Neo orthodox

39%
Fundamentalist

0%

This sounds about right. I also tried to answer how I would have come out 15 years ago (when I believed) and the results weren't really that different.

Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan

75%
Modern Liberal

75%
Emergent/Postmodern

64%
Roman Catholic

64%
Classical Liberal

61%
Reformed Evangelical

54%
Neo orthodox

50%
Charismatic/Pentecostal

46%
Fundamentalist

21%



I guess the main thing I keep discovering is I probably should have tried being a Methodist. Anyway, if anyone else wants to take it I'd love to know how you score.

Friday, December 26, 2008

100 question cult test


I've been trying to find a very good list of characteristics of a cult vs. a religion and I was successful. I'd like to pass this on.

This list meets my criteria:
1) Theologically neutral
2) Extensive & Detailed
3) Meets the common usage of the term

The way this list works is you score each item from 0-10.

0-499 group is relatively safe
500-800 cultish tendencies
800-900 cult
901+ dangerous cult

Here is the list. Link to A. Orange's site which shows examples from well known sites are applying to a well known group (Alcholics Anonymous which scores an 850):

Friday, May 23, 2008

Doing away with empty threats

Over on the Reformed Catholicism blog there is what could become an execellent debate on church discipline.  Kevin Johnson is taking the position that churches need to come into compliance with the law directly to the heart of the conservative protestant movement.  Of course I'm joining in.  

Enjoy

Thursday, May 22, 2008

Debate the Calvinist

For those interested I'll be debating Frank Turk (centuri0n)on the contents of the Defense against Patriarchy. The debate is being hosted on his blog "DebateBlog: Ask the Calvinist". This going to be quite a bit more structured than these debates usually are. I'll be arguing that the bible is unclear on male eldership, and Frank will be arguing that the bible is unambiguous. I have no idea how this debate is going to end up developing. Should be fun, he runs a debate blog so I'll assume he's quite experienced.

His blog doesn't allow for 3rd party comments and I'll use this thread as a place holder for them. Enjoy.

Also to maintain fairness we are doing this debate in pairs of rounds and preforce I have to go 2nd, in the pair. If you see an obvious weakness / flaw in any of Frank's arguments please wait until after my post to state it. I'll be replying blind but I don't want to create the impression of any unfairness. OTOH since I'm going 2nd feel free to critique my stuff the moment its posted. Similarly once we get to the QA please refrain from commenting on questions until after the answer is posted.

________

Addendum 7/11/08: I've closed this post to comments. All comments should be posted to the closing thread.