Wednesday, January 18, 2012

The Rock-paper-scissors of Apologetics

So I tried another round of Catholic apologetics and yet again I'm discovering that the Catholic apologetic falls completely apart in the face of typical Baptist counter arguments. On the other hand I can't help but notice how quickly your more traditional Protestants, with a poorly thought out position on sola scriptura get tied in knots by the Catholic apologetic.

So I've come up with this theory based that apologetics have a big circle similar to rock-paper-scissors.
  • Catholic apologetics tie Calvinism in knots.
  • Calvinism biblically refutes Arminian credobaptists.
  • Arminian credobaptists doesn't let Catholic apologetics get off the ground.  
Most modern Catholic apologetics came from the continent, they aren't American and don't deal with the sorts of claims that a Baptist would make. I've tried again and again to see if Catholics have refutations to basic Baptist theology and so far it appears they don't.

There really are about 5 principle arguments in Catholic apologetic.
  1. Sola scriptura is not taught in the bible, in fact the bible teaches a historic church.
  2. Protestants have to accept tradition on the question of canon and quite often on creed.  
  3. The Reformation failed to produce a robust orthodoxy.  That is sola scriptura doesn't produce a unified belief and any basis for a true church i.e. the "there are hundreds of Protestant denominations..."  
  4. The key arguments some reformers had with the Catholic church: physical presence,  Marian rites, infant baptism, special authority of bishops/pope go back very early.  So the apostasy could not have been near the time of the reformation.   
  5. Church authority is non-severable, the church cannot fall into apostasy.  The  gates of hell shall not prevail....    
To see how these arguments work consider them against, say a  Presbyterian.  The Presbyterian wants to tie himself tightly to historic Christianity.  He doesn't want to put himself in the same boat as fundamentalists, Mormons and Adventists.  So he ends up having to argue all sorts of subtle and disprovable theories. He wants there to be some absolute sense in which he is Christian and a Jehovah's Witnesses is not even though the Jehovah's Witnesses is at least as committed to an accurate read of scripture.  Which means he has to grant historic creeds authority, but the creeds are far later than many other doctrines he would reject and he's off to the races of slitting his own throat.  

The Baptist response to those arguments is easy.  In order:
  1. References to the church in the bible only apply to a local church.  There is no further entity, thus no broad ecclesiology.   The only church Jesus founded was the Jerusalem church, the one church he destroyed, to prevent the idolatry of tying a material church to God.  
  2. Baptists reject the idea that canon comes from tradition.  Rather they believe God raises up a bible for his faithful in their languages.  So for example, the Wulfila, the Gothic bible, doesn't have the book of Acts yet most Baptists believe the Wulfila to have been the legitimate scriptures for that community.  
  3. Baptists believe in a regenerate church.  There will never be a broadly believed orthodoxy. 
  4. They grant that the errant theology was early, but because they aren't tied to any churches beyond the 1st century they are able to clearly look at the history and see the origins accurately.  Baptists, believe that the apostasy started early, almost always by the 2nd century.     The Reformation didn't reconstruct the church, the Protestant churches are just as bad, rather it created the room for further reform.   
  5. Many Baptists do believe that the Catholic church fell into a deep apostasy.  They often believe in a faithful remnant existing inside or outside the church and quite often a restoration in the last 500 years.  
The big difference is that the Baptist makes no claim to be in a qualitatively different situation than the Adventist or Jehovah's Witnesses; they believe themselves to be in a quantitatively different situation.   Salvation comes from asking for Jesus's intercession.  What exact level of understanding is needed, is unclear.  

I suspect ultimately this is a short term phenomena, mostly having to do with English speakers and the internet.  Most of the internet Catholics spend their time debating the internet Protestant apologists that are reformed, James White types.  So this analysis may already be dead in the Spanish speaking community.  In Latin America the real battle is between Pentecostalism and Western Rite Catholicism, the traditional apologetic won't work for the reasons above.  Pentecostals also believe in "Landmarism-lite".  

So... my question to the internet is... does anyone know what's happening in the Latin American apologetics community?  What's happening in Spanish?  

_________

See also:
  • A direct Baptist / Catholic debate: Campbell / Purcell debate.
  • In terms of addressing the argument of government, which is the core of the Neumann apologetic: Mell's book on church government and  Savage's book on church government. More books of this type can be found on the Baptist History Homepage.
  • Remember Lot's Wife, an example of the Baptist apologetic in response to an article lementing the disunity of the reformation.  
  • For a Baptist understanding of church history an easy to read and famous presentation to familiarize yourself with the Baptist mindset is Ellen White's Conflict of the Ages Volume 5 The Great Controversy. For material about the early church, Acts of the apostles (Vol 4) which discusses the early church. Especially her last few chapters of this volume address Catholic claims.  As an aside these books are well written and a good read so, this would be where I'd start. 
  • A short introduction which contrast baptist theology with liturgical churches: Why be Baptist.

Friday, January 6, 2012

Sects to the Reformation



This image is large and may not be laying out clearly on your browser.  Try clicking on the image to see it better, and magnify if you need to.  Or click on this link to download or view isolated.    I had originally put this image together up to about the year 1000 for a debate on Christian origins.  I got inspired to expand when I had to discuss origins of the Reformation and ideas from it.  I think this is a useful reference post, and also might lead to some good discussion.

Because the reformation is so huge, I had to limit scope.  At this point the chart covers the origins of the those sects that came to America from England, the English reformation and development.  It doesn't include the minor dissenting sects that don't appear to have had influence on America.

Arrows are for strong influence or descent, these sects are interacting with one another and passing ideas between them just as religions today do.  Coloring of the arrows is to help reduce visual complexity, and it doesn't mean anything beyond that.  Where possible I've tried to include a sample work in parenthesis for each sect making it clear how I'm using the term and also demonstrating at a glance the evolution in thought.  It is also for the early part, letting the chart do double duty explicating the origins of the bible.

In terms of the colors of the circles:

Salmon is for groups that are Jewish sects.  They may have Christian aspects but they are not yet meaningfully Christian and are in some sense fundamentally Jewish or Samaritan.
Light Blue are proto-Christianities.
Yellow are full blown alternate Christianities, from ancient times.  "Gnosticism" used in the religious sense.
Purple is for groups that I can meaningfully call Catholic, western or eastern rite.
Pink  groups that broke away Catholicism. Sects that I would agree are "schismatic".
Dark Olive Green non-Christian religions.
Yellow-Green is for non-Christian groups with strong Christian influence.
Muddy Pink I'm using for Hermetic Christianity.
Dark-Brown for proto-Protestantism
Red-Brown for Protestantism
Magenta for the non-creedal sects of the Radical Reformation and their descendants 
___

A few things worth noting.

  1. Christianity originated from a variety Jewish and Samaritan cults, which were not part of the mainstream nor the branch that survived.  
  2. Catholicism represents a coming together of various groups.  An early partial consensus, not some sort of original revelation.
  3. Christianity has always been highly diverse.  
  4. The elements of the Protestant Reformation are very old.  In a way, the Cathari and the Beguines are the father and mother of the reformation, with Christian Humanism playing an important role.  Everything develops from the 13th century combination of:
    • primitivism
    • a desire for a lay church
    • a theological neo-gnosticism lite
    trying to fight their way to the surface for the next 300 years. While the specifics in classical Landmarkism are a bit off, the general idea of Christian primitivism are quite correct.   
In terms of remaining issues there are two that bother me.  The first is that the Catholic section is terrible.   Originally the chart just covered Catholic development up to the ancient world, so I only needed a 1/2 dozen Catholic sects.   This one covers Catholicism in the middle ages, so to do it justice I'd probably need over a 100 sects and the diagram would be a sea of purple with a border in the other colors.  I think top priority for the next round, is a full treatment of the origins of the Eastern Sects.

The other is I'm not sure about the Ebionites and the Elkasaites.  If anyone has any suggestions there about the relationship please jump in.  I think I'm going to need to jump into some Dead Sea Scrolls material to work this out.

______________________________________________

See also:

Wednesday, October 5, 2011

How the denominations see each other


Got this indirectly from Thomas the Doubter's blog,  Think it is a great example of a picture is worth 1000 words.

Monday, October 3, 2011

Amanda Knox is free

Wonderful wonderful news, Amanda Knox is free.  I feel fantastic being able to have a purely positive post.  This was an example where a popular pressure was able to create effective political change.

We've been hearing for years how we should ignore the evidence, ignore police misconduct, ignore the fabrication of evidence.  But thankfully large groups of people said "no" and justice won out. Its very nice to see the good guys win for a change and I hope Amanda all the best and happiness.

I don't know if she will ever again be the joyful girl we saw pictured but the tears of joy or relief show her coming back to life.  We can hope and wish it for her.  To everyone I met involved in this case, you saved a life, you did good!  And for Italy we can wish and hope that they use this as an opportunity to overhaul their judiciary.  To make sure that judges do not again fill in holes in cases with wild conjecture and the words, "it is probable".

The court ruled today that the "crime" of the staged break in never happened.  Which is clear evidence of how truly silly the original verdict was, a theory based on a minor crime whose very existence is now disproven. In Italy there are 2 levels of not guilty: reasonable doubt and proven innocent, "per non aver commesso il fatto"; and as a result of the court looking at the evidence and not speculating she met the higher burden of proven innocent on the murder charge.  I'm hoping that comes from using the autopsy, the medical examiner's timeline that the first court casually dismissed because it didn't agree with Mignini's theory. The people of Italy should not have to live under a law where judges freely fabricate evidence because they can't fill in the wholes with the evidence they have.

Monday, August 29, 2011

Christian Origins

This post is for historical reasons only.  Please go to Sects to the Reformation, for an expanded and updated chart.


This image is large and may not be laying out clearly on your browser.  Try clicking on the image to see it better, and magnify if you need to.  Or click and download.    I'm about to enter into a debate on Christian origins, the "one true church" debate.  I put together this little diagram, which still has some definite flaws, breaking down how various groups merged to form ancient Christianities.

Arrows are for strong influence or descent, these sects are interacting with one another and passing ideas between them just as religions today do.  Where possible I've tried to include a sample work in parenthesis for each sect making it clear how I'm using the term, and also letting the chart do double duty explicating the origins of the bible.

In terms of colors:
Yellow are full blown alternate Christianities.
Light Blue are proto-Christianities
Salmon is for groups that are Jewish sects.  They may have Christian aspects but they are not yet meaningfully Christian and are in some sense fundamentally Jewish or Samaritan.
Purple I'm using for groups that I can meaningfully call Catholic.
Pink I'm using for groups that broke away Catholicism. Sects that I would agree are "schismatic".
Dark Olive Green I'm using for non Christian religions.
Yellow Green I'm using for non-Christian groups with strong Christian influence.

___

The core argument for the Catholic apologetic is:
  1. There was a unique historical church that had a clear hierarchy with other local churches and sects in the Early Christian world (say 30-150 CE)
  2. The church from (A) is contiguous with the current day Catholic church (I'm being ambiguous here with respect to Wester or Eastern for flexibility).
  3. Continuity is the key determining factor for what church one should join now.
Classically Protestants have disputed (2). That debate generally comes down to the Catholic arguing the "gates of Hell shall not prevail..." doctrine vs. the Protestant citing lots of bad stuff the Catholic did or believes.  Unlike Protestant, I will grant (2).  I see no evidence for a sharp breaks anytime after the early church.  As this diagram implies.

(1) is very tricky to prove. I would argue the evidence we have is that pieces of proto-Christianity formed around 200 BCE and from 200 BCE-200 CE these diverse sects merged. The 2nd century debates over Montanism show most clearly that it there was a great deal of ambiguity about which churches were or were not associated with other churches; totally inconsistent with the notion of a universally accepted hierarchy

Going back further to the first century we see debates among equals. Paul is arguing in his letters against Judaizers and proto-gnostics based on scripture (the LXX) because he doesn't have access to an authoritative hierarchy.

From a Protestant perspective this diagram is to some extent supportive of the theory in Landmarkism, of Baptist perpetuity.  The idea that the Baptists have always existed.  Certainly for example the Sabians are a baptist sect: believers baptism, salvation by faith...    Though I'm actually putting it several centuries earlier and disagreeing that they have rolled back nearly enough.  Renowned English Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon described Baptist perpetuity as:

We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at the reformation, we were reformers before Luther and Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel under ground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents.

As for point (3) I see the affirmative primarily rests on sacramental authority. That is apostolic succession is mostly demanded in a situation where sacraments (in particular the eucharist / mass) need a laying on of hands (sacramental) to be valid.

I'd argue for any Protestant which has a theory of ordinances rather than sacraments (3) falls apart and this is mainly a begging the question argument for most Protestants. For those like Anglicans or Lutherans that do have a sacramental theology the question becomes is there any reason to believe other than assertion in the claim that the chain is completely unbroken for the first 1500 years but shattered in the last 500?

As an aside the diagram above was a lot of work and is still has errors, I'm reserving the right to update and make improvements; though the basic structure will remain intact.

_____

See also:

Saturday, August 13, 2011

The concept of choice

This is a discussion of choice and and causality.

Context is a debate and a conversation that you can read (here). Essentially I'm arguing for positivism and the existence of freewill, my opponent strict determinism with no free will.

Saturday, July 30, 2011

Data on anti-Mormonism

So I ran into some interesting data on anti-Mormonism from How Americans View Mormonism.  They asked the question of why people didn't trust or support Mormons in positions of leadership 45% of Americans were able to answer that question.  And there answers basically amounted to: I don't know enough about the religion and what I know I don't like, but it was all about the religion:

25% Ignorance -- Don't know enough about Mormons to trust them
9% Different Beliefs -- Non biblical beliefs.
8% Polygamy -- Belief that this practice is still widespread though secret.
6% Non Christian -- Openly don't like non Christians and don't consider Mormons Christian.
5% Fear of unknown -- People don't know enough about Mormons and thus fear them.
5% Book of Mormon -- Disapprove of making your own bible
4% Joseph Smith -- Believe he is a false prophet
4% History -- racism, polygamy....

Conversely I did an article a few years back with corresponding numbers for Evangelicals relative to people under 30s (includes Christians) and you can see the stark differences:
  • antihomosexual 91%
  • judgmental 87%
  • hypocritical 85%
  • old-fashioned 78%
  • too political 75%
  • out of touch with reality 72%
  • insensitive to others 70%
  • boring 68%
There was no complaints what-so-ever that people didn't know what Evangelicals stood for.  The Mormon list is primarily defined by knowing Mormons and elsewhere on the site they comment quickly on how knowing any Mormons drops the antagonism of these issues down.  Their religions doctrines seem to create opposition, and some level of fear.  But other than polygamy and history there is a complete lack of stuff Mormons have done that irritates people.  I was actually shocked proposition 8, or the anti-ERA position didn't show up.  I think in both cases the LDS took a strong political stand and then backed off when they started picking up enemies on the left faster than they were making friends from their activism.

This contrasts strongly with evangelicals where depending how you could only a single issue of doctrine is on the list, antihomosexual.  Rather everything else comes down to some variant of obnoxiousness.  And the percentages are much much higher.  Which is something I'd also point out to Mormons who seem intent on joining evangelicals.  This looks like a perfect case of out of the frying pan into the fire.

As an aside the authors give an example of where Mormonism becomes non-understandable , which I found interesting. The claim to be the only restored church is viewed very negatively.  Quite simply the vast majority of people are unable to even understand the claim that Mormons are making. Slightly rephrasing to this triple:
  1. Christ organized a church.
  2. Men changed it.
  3. It has been brought back.
Brings to light the vast majority of Christians are not rejecting #3 but rather have never considered #1 before.  Once the position is understand 48% agree immediately with point #1.  Of that 48%, 74% agree with point #2 immediately.  And that probably corresponds to a all but a few percent of non-Catholics,  And then from there 1/2 the people that agree to points #1 and #2 are willing to consider the Mormon claim for #3.  Once this is understood as 3 separate claims:
  • 17% -- Maybe Mormons are right
  • 36% -- Mormons are probably wrong
  • 29% -- Mormons are definitely wrong
  • 18% -- No opinion
Without the need for anything more than a 3 paragraph explanation.

____


See also

  • Poll on American attitudes towards Mormons from 2011 (link)

Tuesday, July 26, 2011

Orson Pratt and alternative organizations of matter

One of the things about Mormonism that is quite interesting is that it tries to address the issue of how spirit and body interact in a meaningful way.  That is what is the soul.  This is a key theme in Hellenism, on what basis would God communicate with man?  Cessationist Evangelical Christianity has essentially abandoned this question, God communicated through people in a book and now doesn't meaningfully talk.  Further in terms of soul, it officially takes the orthodox position of a bodily resurrection, while the membership more and more takes the position that such a thing is impossible and believes in a non-corporeal soul.  Which immediately raises the question in light of our modern understanding of the brain: what does the soul do that the body does not do?  Contemporary evangelical Christianity simply doesn't have an adequate answer to this question.

Mormonism conversely has a very different answer.  It essentially adopts hylozoism, "life generates form" that spirit is another form of matter that interacts with standard matter providing an organization.  God is thus expressed in laws of interaction and man's spirit is a participant component of the Godhead.  Spinoza was a well known advocate of this idea with Kant having been a well known opponent.  Martin Buber is probably the most recent prominent advocate.  This idea fit well within Deism, which is probably where Pratt encountered it.  Because of the Pantheistic overtones, most religions reject this theory and even in Mormonism it seems somewhat under developed in terms of specifics.

In modern usage there are 3 main schools of understanding regarding matter and determinism:
  • hylostatism The belief that the universe is deterministic, thus “static” in a four-dimensional sense,  classical mechanics, which was a view Orson Pratt was attacking at the time.  
  • hylostochastism The belief that the universe contains a fundamentally random or stochastic component, which has been proven by quantum mechanics.  
  • hylozoism The belief that the universe contains a fundamentally alive aspect, which is was discussed above.  That the structures have in some sense intent, a drive or an intelligence behind them.  
For Orson Pratt addresses the key argument was the mechanism for the organization of matter. He believed that matter was capable of different types of organizations and these types of matter would have different relationships to one another.   The first type of matter we know of baryon matter.  These are stable hadrons, quarks bound together,  organized in the way we typically think of matter organized.  This is the structure you heard all your life, protons and neutrons forming a nucleus with a negative charged electrons bound to them, forming molecular bonds via. chemical reactions.  This idea was just becoming understood during the period Pratt wrote on materialism.  Since he's died he have a bunch of examples of differently organized matter that we know of.

Of course in theory, we could imagine a situation with a negative charged nucleus and positive charged particles bound.  This is called antimatter, or anti-baryons.  This is exactly the same as traditional matter but with quarks who have reverse "spin".    This can be created in low energy situations because, certain types of traditional matter radioactive isotopes produce anti-matter (anti-baryon) emission during radioactive decay,  which is how a PETscan works.

Additionally we have found a virtual zoo of short lived hadrons. These are combinations of quarks that are fundamentally unstable. A far far greater number of organizations of matter then we had previous thought possible. In a dimension or an environment where certain physical constants were altered our traditional forms of matter (baryons) protons, neutrons, electrons...would be unstable and these other hadrons would be stable.

More recently we have discovered dark matter. This is a type of matter that we are able to detect by gravitational lensing and other effects but doesn't seem to exhibit any chemical or nuclear properties. Because of this it;s rather difficult to study but we can construct on paper a possible candidate the neutralino, but so far mostly haven't been able to prove or disprove this model.  What is interesting from Orson's perspective is if true dark matter only lightly interacts with traditional matter proving that matter can exist, can interact and can be virtually undetectable.

Another organization that is still rather speculative is dark energy. This is still theoretical and we don't have widely accepted models but it appears that dark energy exhibits a collective effect in large quantities and makes up most of the mass/energy of the universe.

So in short Orson Pratt proposed a type of organization of matter, he called spirit which is capable of some sort of reaction with baryons but isn't itself baryon.  The existence of such types of organizations of matter is now proven, and it appears there are plethora of examples.

Now to end on an apologetic note, there is frequently a claim that Mormons believe God lives with his spirit children on a planet called Kolob. Dark matter passes right through planets, as does dark energy.  Further a planet effects you because you have mass, and spirit matter doesn't have mass or at least not much mass, thus no gravitational effects.  If it did dead bodies would weigh less than living ones.   That is most of these different organizations or matter have vastly different properties a "planet" in the conventional sense would mean nothing to them, they wouldn't even "know it was there".   They would be stabilized / organized by entirely different sorts of structures.   So I think Mormons are absolutely correct to object.

What is interesting though is that Joseph Smith seems to have hinted at a solution in Abraham 3 where he does describe Kolob.   He describes it as exhibiting properties both of a star and a planet.   He also mentions one other curious property that time passes on Kolob at a rate of 1 day for every 1000 years on earth.  Taking this far more literally than Joseph Smith intended gives us some intriguing possibilities:
  1. Doing the math, sqrt(1-1/365250)  yields that Kolob moves at 99.99986% of the speed of light relative to earth.  Galaxies move faster from us the further away they are.  If that held up we could imagine Kolob as extremely far away.  But we have no evidence anything that far away exists and our theories about the size of the universe would be contradicted if it did.  Though, many Mormons do believe in an inflationary multiverse and this sort of speed is fully consistent with that view.
  2. If it were an object in the known universe just moving that fast it would have all sorts of weird properties whenever it came in contact with anything from our universe moving in sync with known galaxies.  At those sorts of high energies relativistic masses are enormous for even extremely lite objects.  That still wouldn't allow for unusual organizations of matter, but it would allow for what would highly unusual during "slow down".    
  3. The second possibility is this slowdown is caused by relativistic gravity, and the only place there would that much gravity is inside the event horizon of a black hole.  And of course black holes are one of the areas where the rules of quantum mechanics overwhelm classical constant and all sorts of bizarre organizations of matter are possible.  If we assume that Abraham really was a vision I could imagine someone in the 1840s being at a loss for how to describe events within the confines of a blackhole, somewhere between a planet and a star.  If we imagine spirits to be interacting with things near the event horizon that can escape, again we get unusual organization of matter there are immense amounts of heat energy available, billions of times what's available in the core of a normal star, which produce all sorts of quantum effects this is the theory of Hawking radiation.  In many ways that would meet all the criteria that Orson Pratt described. 
  4. Of course there are things like other dimensions. via super strings which have a different organization of matter, because there would be different physics constant and have the possibility of affecting baryon matter.  Assuming Orson Pratt were right, this is likely the most promising.  
In short the theory has held up rather well, and the idea that Mormons believe in a "planet" in the traditional sense is just unsupportable.  The term is being used in the sense of the book of Abraham not in the sense of a large rock circling a sun.

_________

See also

Monday, July 11, 2011

Mormonism as Hermetic Christianity (part 3)

This is 3rd part where I finally address Mormonism more directly for background on Hermetic Christianity: Part1 Part2.  The idea that early Mormonism was Hermetic is not original to me.   The best known sources on this are (and they wrote in this order):
In fact it is so blatantly obvious as to be almost indisputable: Divining Rods, Treasure Digging, and Seer Stones; Ritual Magic, Astrology, Talismans (Jupiter talisman); Magic Parchments and Occult Mentors, magic dagger (Mars dagger)....

The King Follet Discourse itself presents a thoroughly Hermetic Christianity.
  • The eternal nature of man
  • The Doctrine of heavenly councils
  • The Plurality of Gods
  • Deification of Saints (theopoiesis or theosis)
  • Temple ordinances 
  • The Celestial Kingdom
Mormons often bristle at the mention of magic, "occult" and "magick" are loaded terms.  Magick is used in a Christian context to be supernatural activities that the religion either doesn't believe in or doesn't support; which tautologically wouldn't apply here. Occult is generally used to mean non-Christian religious activity / form of worship, which again wouldn't apply.   "Religious rite" would be a positive term.  If one believes the Eucharistic celebration, baptism, efficiency of prayer, reconciliation by confession, marriage, laying of hands / conferring of holy orders, anointing the sick are all magick actives.  They all rely on "as above, so below", they all assert that via. material manipulations supernatural events can be induced.   Without this core belief religion is reduced to a gathering of an ethical society, so really what distinguished the Mormon church was that it was re-introducing older rites back into a mainstream faith, that is doing precisely what it had always claimed to be doing restoring the church.

It is worth pointing out that Evangelical Christianity, rejects completely the notion of sacraments instead often asserting that there rituals are merely "ordinances",  demonstrations of faith that have no supernatural effects what-so-ever.  They can often be quite inconsistent in this view, but not withstanding Protestantism has been moving away from even the sacramental theology of Catholicism for its entire history.  Such an ideology is needless to say hostile to introductions of more religious rites, and especially claims that such rites are claimed to be efficacious.   There is no getting around this core disagreement between the Mormon church and Evangelical churches, but it is worth pointing out the core disagreement would be equally strong with the Catholic church.  Phillip Lee's Against the Protestant Gnostics, points out that generation by generation modern Protestants adopt point after point after point of the Gnostic positions on where they disagreed with the Orthodox.  There is no question that Gnosticism and Hermeticism looked at the world in fundamentally different ways, and still do today.

The 2nd generation of Mormons extended these ideas.  Orson Pratt argued that all life, including vegetable life was infused with celestial spirit.  Brigham Young asserted the divinity of Adam.  God himself was viewed as interacting with the universe Hermetically:
Universal Matter Is Indestructible. Matter is eternal, that is, everlasting. Whether the various forms of matter may be converted one into the other, is not definitely known. Any such conversion would, however, leave the total quantity of matter unchanged. God, the supreme Power, can not conceivably originate matter; he can only organize matter. Neither can he destroy matter. God is the Master, who, because of his great knowledge, knows how to use the elements, already existing, for the building of whatever he may have in mind. The doctrine that God made the earth or man from nothing becomes, therefore, an absurdity. The doctrine of the indestructibility of matter makes possible much theological reasoning that would be impossible without this doctrine. John Andreas Widtsoe, Rational theology as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints 
and from this comes the a Hermetic doctrine of salvation:
Self-effort, the conscious operation of will, has moved man onward to his present high degree. However, while all progress is due to self-effort, other beings of power may contribute largely to the ease of man's growth. God, standing alone, cannot conceivably possess the power that may come to him if the hosts of other advancing and increasing workers labor in harmony with him. Therefore, because of his love for his children and his desire to continue in the way of   even greater growth, he proceeded to aid others in their onward progress. John Andreas Widtsoe, Rational theology as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints
So the 2nd generation was continuing the themes of Joseph Smith's work, divinity of Adam is implied in Doctrine and Covenants 27:11; 116:1; 138:38, but made explicit in 1852.  Now its interesting this is the same time that polygamy becomes institutionalized.   That is, if we look at the Joseph Smith, Joseph and possibly a small number of leaders practice plural marriage, and often this involves little more than having sex with multiple woman as they continue to reside with their previous husbands.  Sect leaders acting as "alpha males" and having sex with multiple female members is not out of the ordinary.  Other leaders like Brigham Young are marrying widows who would be unlikely to find new husbands, essentially he seems to be primary funding and modeling a social security program.

What is out of the ordinary is the polygamy that starts in 1852, here you have 20-33% of the men in the church having 2 and quite often more wives.  Humans produce male and female children in roughly equal numbers, polygamous households would create a massive shortage of marriageable women.    I can see only 4 possibilities for how this would play out in practice:

  1. There is a wide age discrepancy men and their wives, men marry late women early.  The problem with this scenario is that it creates a large number of middle aged widows, who naturally do not wish to remain chaste for life and a large number of men who until their 30s are getting their sexual activity elsewhere.  This is basically the situation in the high middle ages, which I described in a defense against patriarchy part 5.  We see no signs of this, in fact the whole reason Joseph is marrying women is because the church is so firmly opposed to extra marital sex.    
  2. Same sort of age discrepancy as the first situation but with a small number of women with a large number of male lovers, essentially a prostitution culture.  Again, given the opposition to extra marital sex this is unlikely.  We have no record of anything like this.
  3. Effective polyandry.  That would be a situation where the head of household marries a woman and shares him with his sons until they are old enough to establish their own households.   This is not an uncommon human sexual arrangement, for example it is the norm still in Tibet (though in this case brothers share).    But, there is 0 evidence for it being the norm in 1850s Utah.  
  4. There was an over abundance of women.  Given the Mormons were actively engaging in missions, if say 70+% of the recruits were female and they were losing even a small number of missionaries to apostasy, this would create a huge imbalance.  
So if for a moment we assume (4) is what actually was the case, we see immediately the problem.  The women recruits need to be fed and housed.  One could have large numbers of women living in sort of convent setup, or amply opportunity for women to work and live alone.  But given a gender imbalance new recruits might not have an opportunity to marry, and whether they did or didn't without widespread polygamy the culture would have had a large number of sexually available women, creating lots of extra marital sex.  So an ethical way to handle that would by polygamy.   And if you ask what sorts of women would have been attracted to a Hermetic faith, the budding Spiritualist movement comes immediately to mind.  Young women from conservative backgrounds unhappy with their strict lifeless churches, would easily be drawn into the affirming Mormon faith of the 1850s.  Moreover polygamy effectively creates a situation of a male head of household and a large number of women in a relationship of sisterhood, and a desire for female bonding and not the isolation of 1850s middle class America drew in a lot of the Spiritualists and drew them away from Congregationalist, Presbyterian, Anglican... churches.

So the 2nd generation of Mormon leaders had a membership that was primarily composed of either the the children of the religious radicals that had followed Joseph in Kirtland, in Zion in Nauvoo or Spiritualist female converts.  Every step Brigham Young took towards Hermetic Christianity would have been met with strong approval.  The goal was integration and maintaining them within the church authority, "ministrations for the salvation and exaltation of the world can only be obtained  by one holding the keys of the oracles of God, as a medium  through  which  the  living  can  hear  from  the  dead." (Journal of Discourses, , 1:36, 1855).  Brigham Young said:
"You are right," say I. Yes, we belong to that higher order of Spiritualism; our revelations are from above, yours from beneath. This is the difference. We receive revelation from Heaven, you receive your revelations from every foul spirit that has departed this life, and gone out of bodies of robbers, murderers, highwaymen, drunkards, thieves, liars and every kind of debauched character, whose spirits are floating a round here, and searching and seeking whom they can destroy; for they are the servants of the devil, and they are permitted to come now to reveal to the people. . . . That is the difference between the two spiritual systems—yes, this is the higher order of spiritualism, to be led, governed and controlled by law, and that, too, the law of heaven that governs and controls the Gods and the angels. (Brigham Young,  "The  Word  of Wisdom—Spiritualism,"  JD 13:274-83, 281)

But in the 3rd generation this completely shifts.  We can see this immediate by looking at the temples.  First generation temples like Nauvoo are loaded with Hermetic symbolism, the image on the left is a "sunstone" known to occultists as the symbol for Ba'al.

Second generation temples are simlarly Hermetic, Salt Lake City for examples has: Earthstones, Moonstones, Sunstones, Cloudstones, Starstones, a representation of the big dipper,  clasping hands, all-seeing eye (the most fameous Hermetic symbol derived from the eye of Horus, from eye of Ra and before that the eye hieroglyph of the goddess Wadjet).

Third generation temples feature geometric shapes in a sort of toned down art deco style.  The art is so de-personel except for a few details like the baptistry could be mosques.

Religiously a neo-orthodoxy starts which emphasizes the atonement of Jesus rather than traditional Mormon teachings.  And moreover there is almost no progression towards Hermeticism.  Mormons stop in this generation and from the 1950s outright reverse course.  I suspect there are 3 reasons for this:
  1. The church is no longer being led by religious radicals, but rather conservatives.  The leaders the 1880 church are not the sort of men who would have joined with a wild young prophet in Kirtland, even missionary efforts start to fall off.   
  2. The membership is 4th generation and Mormons don't want the struggles of being outside the mainstream.
  3. The changes in Spiritualism have made Spiritualist bad recruits and at the same time Mainline Christianity is amenable to restoration.  So the church needs to emphasize its similarities with mainline Christianity.   
  4. The Spiritualism inside the church is becoming more threatening to the Mormon faith.  

(1) and (2) are frequently discussed.  And its important to understand the the 3rd generation of leadership was acting broadly in line with these goals:

  • The abolition of Christian Socialism.  Mormons would no longer have a closed economy but engage the larder American economy. 
  • A generation later Mormons would abandon the People's Party (the Mormon party in Utah) and instead become Republicans and Democrats.
  • Polygamy was abandoned.
  • Rather than wanting distance from the American government the Mormon church worked hard to address the issues preventing Utah from becoming a state. 


But (3) and (4) have not been raised, and I think it gives insight into why the Mormon church is becoming more mainstream.   In 1877  Helena Petrovna Blavatsky bursts onto the religious scene with the immensely popular and influential Isis Unveiled.   Isis Unveiled, transformed Hermetic Christianity and the spiritual movement.  Up until then the movement had seen itself as restoring a better form of Christianity, peeling off layer after layer of dead traditions that pulled one away from the simple pure message of Jesus.    Blavatsky threw down the gauntlet, the picture you see to the right is not Jesus, its Dionysus from hundreds of years before Christianity emerged.  As we talked about briefly in the first part, Jesus emerged from dying reborn gods: Hermes Trismegistus and Sophia.  Behind them stand: Adonis, Tammuz, Amun-Mir, Attis and back another layer Horus, the son of Isis, Isis unveiled as the mother of all faiths.

The problem for restorationist Christianity is the layers are the onion.  Everything is pagan if you go back far enough, religious debates are more than anything else about which pagan gods to follow in their modern forms.  I suspect the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, like all Hermitic Christians, were shook by Blavatsky.  I think the 3rd generation of church leaders, saw where their fellow travelers a few steps ahead had gone and lost their nerve, they began to doubt in a truly profound way Joseph Smith's vision in 1820 and where it led, and froze in their tracks.  And from there started to regress slowly back to the Evangelical mainstream.

Moreover just as the dynamics of missionary activity and membership had encouraged the 2nd generation in building towards Joseph's vision the dynamics of the Isis Unveiled moved things in the opposite direction.  The new Spiritualists stopped being Hermetic and became Gnostic with groups like  Theosophy and Christian Science being the mainstream.  Gnosticism, with its deep suspicion of any temporal leadership especially religious leadership and its profound individualism would have run counter to everything the church would desire in recruits.  Spiritualists from the late 1870s on, would have been terrible missionary candidates, very difficult to integrate after their baptism.  Finally, because the church had recruited heavily among Spiritualists it had deep problems in preventing this new anti-authoritarian Spiritualism from infecting the church.   Quite simply the bridge no longer served its purpose.

At the same time, mainstream Christianity was itself going through a quest for Christian primitivism.  What would become Liberal Christianity was fermenting in every mainstream denomination.  The idea that the creeds were an artificial barrier to understanding the scriptures, was no longer a radical idea.  Moreover, a critique that the bible was not the inerrant word of God, but rather an inaccurately transmitted creation of church was becoming more mainstream.  Why go after a niche when the broader public was available?

The next hundred years would be a time of the LDS more and more and more integrating into the mainstream of America and trying to make the Mormon faith seem absolutely mainstream.  But the membership appears to not share that goal and has held on to the revelations of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.  When McConkie's Mormon Doctrine was pulled Sandra Tanner commented on the radio (link)
I believe the main reason McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine” was taken out of print was due to its candid discussion of LDS doctrines that the church is now trying to hide. Such teachings as God once being a man, his wife–Heavenly Mother, and Jesus being the literal, physical son of God are just a few of the doctrines that are being minimized in current manuals. If the LDS Church felt “Mormon Doctrine” presented a faulty compilation of their doctrines, why haven’t they issued an authorized compendium of their beliefs? Mormons often say to me, “That’s not official doctrine” as though there was some place to look up the official teachings. Where is the official systematic theology of Mormonism?
And that leads us to where we are today.  A church leadership intent on mainstreaming a radical form of Christianity.  A constant tug of war between the goals of restoration of the primitive church, and a desire to acceptance.  Arguably repeating the very mistakes that led to the great apostasy (see part 2 on the orignal death of Hermetic Christianity).
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I hope this argument proves for both Evangelicals and Mormons that Hermetic Christian offers a compromise meeting the goals I set out in the first part of this essay.   Now I'd like to comment on why its something Mormons should enthusiastically embrace:

Lady Gaga, the number one entertainer in the world, has built an empire on the emotional and intellectual draw of Hermetic imagery.  Its not just her presentation its her content.  The video for Bad Romance is a phenomenal exposition of what Mormons would call the estates of progression and atonement.  Like Song of Songs it uses sex as a metaphor, for the relationship with God, which generally makes conservatives uncomfortable, though Mormons I suspect less so given a theology in which God is a father in a more literal sense.  I'd challenge any Mormon to watch the video, which opens with the scratched star (link to this symbol from the DC temple), moves right on to birth in spirit vs. birth in flesh, talking in the mirror reflecting the relationship between spirit and flesh in prayer, birth in water (Eve) in innocence...her flashing the all-seeing eye  and not see obvious material for a dozen sermons?  What other church with millions of members and a missionary culture has a symbology tied to their theology that incorporates this symbolism?  Who else can explain in a Christian context what those visuals mean?  This is a slow-ball they should have been able to hit out of the park.

And this video isn't uniquely rich.   Judas presents salvation where the Lady Gaga character rejects Jesus choosing Judas instead fails to be saved and becomes the Whore of Babylon in Revelations.  Just about any Christian could present the theology in those verses but only the Mormon and Catholic churches have a semiotics rich enough to explore the accompanying visuals, and the Catholic church lacks a missionary culture.  I'm not suggesting a theology book based on Lady Gaga for Mormons, I suspect the amount skin shown makes her a problematic source, but rather the fact that the number one musical act to come along in a long time is preaching their message and they won't take advantage is depressing.

Mormons are gong to have a culture conflict with any modern Hermetic Christianity.  But putting the problems aside, we live in a a time when youth are losing all interest in churches and retention is terrible, there is one major church in the United States and possibly the world with the resources, missionary culture, understanding and theology to fill this gap, a desire to relate to God expressed Hermetically.  The Mormon church has the ace of trump for the millennial generation. But as we discussed above over the last 100 years rather than embrace their Hermetic aspects the Mormon church has been losing their distinctives:  these videos are the temple imagery acted out.

The Mormon church was founded by a man with no official station who used divination to arrive at new revelations and understandings of the scriptures.   Was that a legitimate activity?     The church still claims prophetic powers, though rarely uses them. Judaism, Islam and Orthodox Christianity all claim the time of revelation is over and now all we can do is study the existing revelations and draw meanings. Christian mysticism allows for personal insights but argues that drawing doctrinal conclusions is illegitimate.  In the 21st century does the Mormon church want to be the sort of place it was in the 19th century or the sort of place the 19th century Mormons were fleeing?

Back in the 1950s there was a move within the Seventh Day Adventist church to eliminate the few remaining distinctives that prevented them from being seen as orthodox, to join the Evangelical mainstream.  The book Questions on Doctrine, was a series of answers to questions that toned down Adventist beliefs, getting them to just barely qualify.   In their case it was being driven by their academics who wanted to be able to speak and not just attend Evangelical conferences.  The Adventist membership reacted strongly, in their mind if they had wanted to join an Evangelical church they would have.   And today I still don't see 7th Day Adventists invited to Evangelical conferences as speakers, Evangelicals still detest Ellen White.

For the Mormons, they could throw out 90% of their distinctives and still not be where the Adventists were in the 1950s.   Ellen White wrote commentaries about the bible, Joseph Smith wrote (translated) his own bible.   Ellen White shifted the theological focus of salvation from Romans to Hebrews with its heavenly sanctuary, Brigham Young redefined heaven.    The unique characteristics of the Mormon church are what make it so special.  The Mormon church should play to its plentiful strengths, it should happily identify as Hermetic Christians.

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See also:

Saturday, July 9, 2011

C. J. Mahaney stepping down

I've posted twice before regarding SGM Sovereign Grace Ministries which was a look at structural problems in their discipline process and Sovereign Grace Ministries' use of demotivational methods which was a particular abusive technique they made heavy use of which was a distinctive. The leader of SGM C. J. Mahaney is stepping down. Note on his blog, note from the board, leaked documents regarding the dispute.  C.J. heads up Together for the Gospel, and is bringing in his friends from that organization to guide him during his stepping down.

I'd like to congratulate the people at the various SGM blogs: SGM Survivors, SGM Refuge, Spiritual Tyranny, Wartburg Watch, SGM Uncensored .  Mahaney has been a major leader in the whole New Calvinism movement.  So far the issues being discussed are internal problems regarding Mahaney creating problems with other pastors, rather than the more widespread  longstanding pattern of abuse of membership.  Its the authoritarian culture that's the problem, Mahaney, as dictators go is not unusually bad.  Part of being a dictator is terrorizing or at least intimidating those around you, that's the job.  If you don't like the behavior don't create authoritarian structures that necessitate it.

So the doctrinal and structural problems remain.  But what has changed is the problems are being widely talked about on the web.  When Joshua Harris rereleased Boy meets Girl the fact that 2 of the couples in his previous edition were getting divorced was public knowledge.  Stories about church facilitated sexual abuses have leaked.  Stories about embezzlement have leaked.  Stories about wrongful terminations, ruined marriages, and how miserable so many women are in SGM have leaked.   SGM is not able to act in secrecy anymore and the blogs above, and several others that were active over the last few years are responsible.

I don't have much to say other than this was an important step in people banding together to try and prevent the sorts of rampant abuses in authoritarian churches.  And the offer I made to Josh Harris 3 years ago remains open.  If SGM wants to start trying to build structures to stop abuses rather than to facilitate them I'd love to engage in constructive conversation.


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Post Script (Feb 2, 2012)

It appears that way these allegations were handled was to create a biased board that investigated it and exonerate C.J. Mahaney.  The results are still not published, but the underlying facts to present Mahaney as having threatened someone to keep them silent years ago.   I'm not sure what is going to ever get published but I'll update here as more information becomes available:



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