The cbc (which is like the BBC but for Canada) goes for the political persecution angle on this (which is a pretty high end source)
The church censored its guest book of all the references to the controversy.
Both blogs carry this counter claim about a horn being blown:
I happen to attend this church. The situation with this lady has been happening for a while. She was approached by church officials a few times about how she conducts herself in service. (One example of an issue that they confronted her about is: She was blowing a horn, the kind you take to a hockey game, in the middle of the song service. It was becoming very distracting and irritating to most people in the congregation. The pastor kindly asked her to not do that anymore, and she made a huge fuss. I clearly recall one service where she was blowing the horn, and a child in front of her was crying because it was so loud, she was oblivious to the fact she was making a young child cry).There isn't much on her. And the facts are muddy. I don't have much to say.
_____
(Follow up) 2 years after this was written Deborah told her side of the story below in the comments.
(Follow up#2 written Feb 2010): After about 500 posts in this thread the evidence finally broke. Deborah Boschman was excommunicated for writing a fairly typical letter to her local paper asking for standard municipal actions, which resulted in her get excluded from her church for embarrassing the pastor. We may never know if this was poor judgement or abuse of office but we do know that had proper procedure been followed Boschman would have remained a member of Bethel. If anything the CBC understated the extent to which Pastor Davis' actions were questionable.
928 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 800 of 928 Newer› Newest»first things first, no puppies were killed. second deborah herself admits that it wasn't excommunication. If a person was excommunicated they would be calling the church to ask if they could attend a service and being told that they couldn't tell her no not to come. So right there disproves your whole ecommunication theory. I don't see how Pastor Davis' is coming apart? I haven't seen anything come to light that all of us haven't already known. You know my opinion on what you're doing to deborah so I don't think I need to mention it again.
I may have to contact someone from Human Rights to act on my behalf.
I cannot go on ebrandon again.
These Conservatives complained again because I was trying to help a Columbian man who was depressed to get his family to Brandon.
My posting on ebrandon and requesting assistance for him ruffled feathers in this city again.
EVERYTHING ruffles feathers in this city!
This is RIDICULOUS now and is like a censorship of myself.
I wanted to contribute to the article regarding the Poverty Committee that met at City Hall in Brandon but I've been blocked from contributing yet again.
Some HORRIBLE stories were shared by those on the FRONT lines of this poverty battle within Brandon.
For example a student in Grade 1 went home for lunch and his house was locked. He fell asleep outside.
His VERY CARING Principal went to look for him and found him asleep in a snowbank.
Most Principals in the schools in the Brandon School Division now have refrigerators in their offices because MANY students are coming to school hungry.
We need to do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to obtain MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING within Brandon.
I told the Minister that we need ACTION now; no more talk, but ACTION!
I wanted to post these comments and others on ebrandon but I'm NOT ALLOWED again.
You see these Conservatives within Brandon WILL DO EVERYTHING WITHIN THEIR POWER to shut you down.
They ABSOLUTELY DON'T WANT CHANGE WITHIN BRANDON and I asked the owner of ebrandon if he was a Conservative himself.
This is NOT FAIR AT ALL!
I have VERY VIABLE, REALISTIC thoughts, ideas and I am NOT ALLOWED to share them on ebrandon AGAIN.
This is SICK.
You see these Conservatives will complain about EVERYTHING because they like the status quo in this city and they DON'T WANT THE LEADERSHIP OR ANYTHING ELSE TO CHANGE WITHIN THIS CITY!
I'm going to contact a person from Human Rights because this is RIDICULOUS now!
I want to see things IMPROVED within this city.
I am FOR the citizens of Brandon.
I am FOR the truth and I am FOR action and at EVERY TURN they try and/or DO shut me down.
THIS is the REAL, UNFORTUNATE story of Brandon.
Sad, but true.
Brandon has a Conservative Stronghold for leadership over it.
I want to see this BROKEN OFF of Brandon but this is a REAL, TANGIBLE, LEGITIMATE BATTLE for goodness sakes.
I have MUCH to contribute to make Brandon better but the POWERS THAT BE OVER BRANDON ARE TRYING TO SHUT ME DOWN AT EVERY TURN AND CORNER.
This is ridiculous now!
All I did was try to help a Columbian man and he is now getting his family to Brandon in about 2 weeks, thanks to a couple from our church who went to Columbia to speak with the Embassy themselves!
I'm going to expose this Conservative NONSENSE over this city.
This is RIDICULOUS now.
I get in trouble because I try to help someone?
Why? Did I embarrass the Conservatives because I will actually ACT on things rather than just talk about them for like 8 years?
The poverty issues and concerns within Brandon are VERY REAL and are growing exponentially.
We heard MANY REAL HORROR stories!
The needs are REAL and GROWING EXPONENTIALLY.
Brandon requires ACTION now and no more talk; just tangible RESULTS and ACTION!
Councillors Errol Black, Margo Campbell and Garth Rice were at this Poverty Forum.
MANY individuals within the City of Brandon are having to choose between shelter and food.
Slum landlords appear to be getting away with murder in this city.
Rents are WAY TOO HIGH, there is an INCREDIBLE SHORTAGE of housing and this need is increasing EXPONENTIALLY within Brandon.
I suggested to Councillor Garth Rice that he send a copy of the comments of those working with the poor to our local cable TV station, the Chamber of Commerce and EVERY church within Brandon.
These needs are REAL and INCREASING in EVERY AREA in Brandon.
AFFORDABLE HOUSING has to be a TOP PRIORITY within this next election.
The City of Brandon has allotted land but needs to find a DEVELOPER.
We need to act on this IMMEDIATELY.
I see more social unrest as a result of a lack of Affordable Housing within Brandon.
We need to GET REAL within this City.
They just want to COVER EVERYTHING UP within this City.
I am NOT for ANY cover ups at all.
I am a woman of ACTION. I want to DELIVER to the people that these politicians are SUPPOSE to be REPRESENTING!
These boys DON'T WANT these REAL TRUTHS exposed. They want everything to just stay the same.
It's UNBELIEVABLE really!
I thought that Councillor Doug Paterson would run for Mayor and perhaps he still will.
He should be COMMENDED for his service to Brandon on City Council.
Remember, his proposal for Affordable Housing was TURNED DOWN by City Council.
There currently appears to be NO TRANSPARENCY with the people from City Hall.
We DESPERATELY NEED TO THROW SOME OF THESE BOYS OUT, I'M TELLING YOU, if we want to TAKE OFF AS A CITY!
I'm TRYING VERY HARD to FIGHT for the citizens of Brandon and I'm getting SHOT DOWN at EVERY TURN AND CORNER.
Well, I'm NOT GIVING UP AND I'M NOT QUITTING.
I care about the people living here and things need to RADICALLY IMPROVE!
As for the gossip from Bethel misinterpreting what I said. Give me a break.
She's a peverbial, constant, habitual gossip. She is doing this ALL of the time! She has hurt MANY individuals and families and this continues even yet! UNBELIEVABLE!
She NEEDS to SERIOUSLY be held ACCOUNTABLE for her actions.
I'm going to rebuke that broad REAL GOOD if I ever run into her again; that trouble-making gossip.
I have ZERO TOLERANCE for women such as herself and NO RESPECT.
Look at ALL the TROUBLE this woman has caused already.
She hasn't learned a thing.
Stop making excuses for the folly of these three women at Bethel.
Hopefully, there aren't more but who knows?
We want people to convert to Christianity so that they can be exposed to THIS?
Some individuals at Bethel had better start getting REAL about 2 Chronicles 7:14; "If My people, who are called by My name will humble themselves and pray and seek My face and TURN FROM THEIR WICKED WAYS, I will hear from Heaven and I will forgive their sins and heal (restore) their land."
Stop pretending that you don't know who these women are. Get real.
These women are ALWAYS on the computer and are quite computer literate so STOP YOUR LYING.
Mrs. G., Gayle K., Julie V.A.; the three witches of Bethel and HOPEFULLY there aren't more; although the new Administrator there told people I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW UNTRUTHS about myself over the telephone because these individuals phoned to tell me about this.
Perhaps they should be shipped over to Salem, Massachussetts. They'd probably FIT RIGHT IN THERE with the history of that place.
Does Brandon need to have it's own witch trial? Perhaps we do.
Oh for goodness sakes, the conservatives got you kicked off of ebrandon? Really? And how did you go about getting to that conclusion? If that isn't paranoid, i don't know what is. (Just an FYI here, if you go to the site, it is quite liberal, as are most who post. There are only a few of us 'conservatives' on there and believe it or not, we don't care to talk about you. I do believe the site administrator there is also a liberal.) (also, you can check, but i believe the site is a private website not a public one, so he does have the right to block people from posting, especially those who break the rules. I have no idea why you aren't allowed to post, but i imagine it has to do with not following rules, he's pretty good about allowing people on his site.)
As for you having problems with the new administrator, I can't say that I know her at all, but isn't it curious that now you have problems with her? So is it a guarantee that anyone who goes on staff/leadership there will automatically become a target?
Amazing that you seem to have all these problems with everyone else, but not one bit of it is your responsibility.
sigh, deborah, conservatives don't own ebrandon. Adam does. You were banned because of not following forum rules, not because the conservatives told him not to let you post.
Deborah, the more you write the less Christian you sound. Those people may have made you angry, but you have responsibility to still act in an upright maner. Of which this is not. The problem of you not being heard isn't because of conservatives, its because of you. You are your own worst enemy. You talk about how much you care about the people of brandon then in the next sentance start calling names and insulting people. You are behaving no better than these people you are upset with and call witches. You want to be heard? Then act like it. Stop threatening people, stop calling names, stop insulting people. No one wants to listen to you right now because your suggestions are generally unrealistic and even the realistic ones are clouded by your abusive nature to anyone who disagrees with you.
I broke NO forum rules.
The incident with the new Administrator is back when this incident first occurred 4 years ago now.
I was informed that there were complaints AGAIN on ebrandon.
Every time I post, someone from Conservative Brandon complains and I didn't post ANYTHING contrary at all.
I was just trying to help a Colombian man who was unable to get his family to Canada but HE GOT THEM ANYWAY in spite of ALL of these setbacks and obstacles!
Get your head OUT of the sand about what is REALLY going on within this city.
EVERYONE else seems to be seeing more of these things now.
Don't you two have a life other than being on this blog?
Nope, I already know that you don't and so I shouldn't have asked.
I just received a post from Creflo Dollar's iphone. He said:
"Instead of being troubled by trouble, be developed by trouble and remember that trouble has an EXPIRATION date. Trouble don't last always! PTL"
I just invited Benazir Bhutto's husband and son to come to Brandon.
I am going to get in touch with the Muslim community because IF they do decide to take me up on my offer, this will be HUGE for Brandon and for the Muslim community.
I have some friends in Pakistan now and I asked them to get me in touch with her family.
I LOVED Benazir Bhutto and her book, DAUGHTER OF DESTINY is TOTALLY INSPIRATIONAL!
She went through INCREDIBLE OBSTACLES in Pakistan; INCREDIBLE OBSTACLES!
Her book is VERY ENCOURAGING and INSPIRATIONAL!
Get a life of your own, you two troubled and controlling gossips and witches and leave mine alone now.
Get off of here.
Haven't you caused enough trouble already?
What you're back for more? What a surprise!
CD host: Could you prevent Anonymous posters from posting on this blog?
I'm STILL being harassed by these broads and I want this harassment to STOP!
Is what you're doing the "Christian" thing to do?
I HARDLY think so.
LEAVE ME ALONE! I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THE TWO OF YOU FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE!
Maybe you two like to PLAY the part of a Christian and play church but I actually want to be part of a REAL church and body of believers who take their walk VERY SERIOUSLY and I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THE FOLLY of the likes of you two.
LEAVE ME ALONE! Get OFF of here and go find something else to occupy your time with other than harassing me any further on this blog.
Go and get a life of your own if that is even possible.
CD host, can you DO something about this intolerable situation?
Do I HAVE to be constantly berated and barraged by these two idle, sick individuals?
Could you remove the anonymity of posters on this blog?
Is this possible?
Please consider this request.
I'm REALLY TIRED of being brought down and harassed by these broads any longer.
A few responses here:
"Every time I post, someone from Conservative Brandon complains and I didn't post ANYTHING contrary at all."
How do you know it was some Conservative? or are you making assumptions again on what happened?
I don't know or care what happened on ebrandon, I'm aware that this isn't the first time you've been booted. But honestly you don't know who complained, yet your automatically jumping on the conservatives?
What i do know is that it takes more than just a complaint to get booted from there, the admin wouldn't remove you without reason. complaints aren't enough, he usually checks into the comments and such and will remove you If rules are broken more than once. Even with that, usually you get a few warnings first, so i imagine it Wasn't because someone complained about you.
"Don't you two have a life other than being on this blog?"
Don't you?
Seriously Deborah read my post again. other than that I have nothing to say, I'm just rolling my eyes while reading your post.
Hi Deborah, I was just on ebrandon and your account is still on there. Who told you can't be on ebrandon anymore. I haven't seen anything on there lately from you that seem inappropriate. Deborah I just wanted you to know not everyone in Brandon is against you. Unfortunatly most of what you have said about Brandon being a "Boys Club" is very true. We see it all over Brandon within our churches, city hall different organization and also within businesses here also. I have live in Brandon since I was 16 and I am 39 now and have watch many things go down within this city that are not fare. And ladies please don't accuse me of being Deborah because I am not. I'm sure you won't like what I have said because in some ways suppports Deborah. It seem anyone that tries to support her you have something to say about it. I'm not a crazy person or anything else you might suggest. I'm well educated, have managed 3 different businesses within Brandon and now have my own here. I have dealt with City Hall and our Mayor directly with different issues and can't wait for him to be replaced!! I'm not saying Deborah is the person for the job, but she certainly couldn't do any worse!! I have also attended Bethel Church a few time and it is not a warm and welcoming church far from it. People are very snobbish and I am very easy going and have never had any problems getting along with anybody. But at Bethel its very much who you know there. They certainly didn't make me feel welcome there so I didn't continue to go anymore. Regards S.
Regarding the Colombian man thread:
The thread was actually met with concern for the man by most people.
There were some questions as to why his employer (a meat processing plant which brings in many immigrant employee's) wouldn't help him at all, as well as a few people discussing the proper avenues that should be taken, and which would be ineffective.
The only person who criticized your post was the user Anknmn. From the nature of his day to day postings on ebrandon Anknmn is a known LIBERAL. Not to mention a stick in the mud who criticizes anyone who he thinks is less smart than him.
The thread can be found here.
There were no obstacles or any attempt from ebrandon/conservatives to shut you up.
CD I posted a comment late last night and I am wondering why it has not been posted? Mine was before the post 610. Was there a problem with what I said? Regards S.
I have NEVER been given ANY warnings on ebrandon, NOTHING, just removal.
The proper procedures regarding myself have ALWAYS been different.
I just found out that one of the boy's club members that I have OFTEN REFERRED TO has told COMPETING BUSINESSES around Brandon, in these smaller communities, that IF they don't sell out to him, that he's going to put them or run them OUT of business.
This is NO SURPRISE here!
This has been happening FOREVER in this city.
I am going to contact The Fifth Estate, again, anybody from CBC that I possibly can get a hold of in this upcoming election.
NO STONE is going to be left uncovered by the time I am through.
I am going to FIGHT and STICK UP FOR THESE PEOPLE who have been getting ripped off FOREVER within and around Brandon.
I was also told by two different individuals now that the Free Masons regularly meet on a Sunday evening in the basement of a VERY FORMIDABLE BUSINESS within Brandon.
I really wish we could get an undercover camera in there and find out ALL who's involved.
I was also told that several businesses from Brandon go to Winnipeg for Free Mason meetings there.
I'm going to ask the Fifth Estate to investigate who owns ALL or MOST of the land surrounding Brandon.
WHY didn't we get that Promenade Project? What was the REAL reason?
I was told that this boy's club didn't want an OUTSIDER coming into Brandon because then he gets some power and they DON'T want to share power.
They've run this town FOREVER. It's ALL ABOUT THEM. It ALWAYS has been.
They could give a rip about ANY of the rest of us.
It's about THEM and their profits and power.
They just want a Mayor who is a puppet for them, whom they can intimidate and manipulate.
That is another reason WHY I feel that we DESPERATELY need new leadership within Brandon.
I believe that we have OUTGROWN Mayor Dave's leadership style and it is time to move on now with a different style and approach.
I want to see a Bylaw passed that makes it against the law to smoke within so many meters or feet of children, the elderly, the infirmed, anyone.
There are smoking laws that you cannot smoke within 50 meters of children on soccer fields, in Ontario.
Here, you are not allowed to smoke within 15 meters or feet of businesses and yet I know a VERY STUBBORN, SELFISH INDIVIDUAL who REFUSES to stop smoking in front of his wife and two children in the house and in the car!
The house, toys, furniture, EVERYTHING ALWAYS stinks of smoke and he REFUSES to STOP DOING THIS SELFISH BEHAVIOR in front of his wife and children.
I contacted the Provincial and Federal Health Ministers to pass a law also making this an offense that could be deemed as a form of abuse.
I feel like the Ralph Nader of Brandon because I am going to STICK UP FOR AND FIGHT FOR THE MAJORITY ELECTORATE AND THE CITIZENS OF BRANDON!
I've had ENOUGH of the cover ups, the masks, the games, the BS that goes on within this city.
I want to see a BETTER BRANDON for ALL OF US and NOT just for that VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE of boys with money, power, control and toys who basically OWN and CONTROL Brandon.
THAT'S ENOUGH OF THAT, NOW!
IF you KNEW the EXTENT to which they have controlled things within this city, you would be HORRIBLY REPULSED, DISGUSTED and HOPEFULLY you will rise up in protest against this.
I am on here because ALL other avenues for me to share with the general population have been CUT OFF, TAKEN AWAY or removed from myself.
IF this is the ONLY AVENUE, before the election begins, in which I can get the TRUTH out there to this majority electorate then I will be on here exposing it.
I want to see ACTION for the citizens of Brandon; lots of ACTION!
NO MORE TALK, JUST ACTION NOW AND LOTS OF IT!
I have written to MANY individuals now asking them to come and build more AFFORDABLE HOUSING within Brandon.
EVERYONE is saying that the conditions are at a CRISIS POINT within this City.
I believe in God. I try to live like a Christian. I am not perfect but EVERY DAY I am trying harder than the day before.
IF I am who I say that I am, then I want to make a POSITIVE DIFFERENCE for THE MAJORITY of the citizens of this city.
I respect the efforts that Mayor Dave has made over the past 8 years but I also see how much MORE could have been done, in my opinion.
I am NOT out to kiss anybody's glutous maximus within this city. I am running to fight for the VERY BEST INTERESTS OF THE PEOPLE, THE CITIZENS of Brandon.
We could have so much MORE than we currently have now. I am going to fight like a tiger for that.
I want to slay those boy's club dragons within this City so that the windows, doors, gates could be thrown wide open within and over this City.
THIS is where I am coming from. Yes, I get incredibly FRUSTRATED and annoyed as does ANYONE who has tried to break through and deal with the political bureaucracy that is Brandon.
We could be a dynamic, vibrant, happening, pulsating place but this current leadership is holding us back, in my opinion, from taking off and becoming ALL that we could be.
I met some developers in Vancouver when I was there this summer and I asked some of these men to think about developing in Brandon.
They are going to get back to me.
They told me, "Don't worry about any boy's club in Brandon. We have our ways to get around that. Heck, we're dealing with WAY bigger Corporate fish than them out here in Vancouver and we are MAJOR DEVELOPERS."
I want to see SO MANY MORE businesses, industries, development in and around Brandon.
I want to see MUCH MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING, a water slide or Family Fun Centre or Park.
I want to see Brandon as a MAJOR player within this province and I want to see us COMPETING with Winnipeg in EVERY way.
I don't have a problem with you supporting deborah anonymous, Its the times where people take opinion and treat it like fact, or make assumptions about the situation that they have no idea about that I object to. (actually the only person I've mentioned that i though had mental troubles is deborah herself, I don't recall saying that about anyone else, so i don't get why you're going with that?) (And guy, you know those two crazy posts way back were obviously deborah, even those that were not against what she is doing noticed that) Seems like you're looking for problems before they arrive, I don't have problems with those who support her, just do it honestly.
As for the church, I always found it warm and inviting, even when i was new there (when i Used to attend, before i moved away). I guess sometimes the situation is what you make it to be. I've never seen them act snobbish, and found they are incredibly inviting to new comers. Too bad you didn't like it there, its a fantastic place to be a part of.
Please remember that Mr. Yogesh Goradia, a multimillionaire developer, from the U.S., wanted to build MORE MUCH DESPERATELY NEEDED Affordable Housing within Brandon and he was BLATANTLY TURNED DOWN, REJECTED and treated VERY DISHONORABLY when he visited Brandon.
I was at the meeting and it was HORRIBLE how badly this man was treated. It was DISGRACEFUL and DISGUSTING!
Mayor Dave was and is on The Brandon and Area Planning Committee and his lawyer brother has the Brookwood Waverly Development in Brandon's west end.
Does THIS have anything to do with why we did NOT get the Promenade Project or why the City is reluctant to IMMEDIATELY pursue Affordable Housing within Brandon?
The way I see things, from a historical perspective within Brandon, is that greed and selfishness from the powerful boy's clubs and their affiliates in power have controlled Brandon FOREVER and have run this town.
It appears that IF things don't benefit them, then we simply DON'T GET THEM. They are simply NOT ALLOWED INTO THIS CITY!
It appears to be ALL ABOUT THEM.
I asked a housing developer within Brandon to build some Affordable Housing in Brandon years ago.
He told me to tell the man who owns MOST of the land in and around Brandon to bring the lot prices down and then he could build Affordable Housing.
I asked him, "Why don't you tell him?" He then told me, "I can't. If I EVER did that he would run me out of town as has happened with other individuals within this City."
So, then you wonder WHY we have complacency and compliancy within Brandon?
There is a HISTORY of abuse within this City by those in power and control over this city.
They could give a RAT'S REAR END about us because IT'S ALL ABOUT THEM. IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN.
WE CAN CHANGE ALL THAT IN THIS UPCOMING ELECTION!
We can come together, work together and achieve and accomplish WAY MORE than has ever been accomplished or achieved before.
I want to see Brandon host a multiplicity of events. I want to see Brandon host MANY, MANY events, competitions in sports, swimming, with animals, horses, flowers, gardening, crafts, entrepreneurial, educational, creative, YOU NAME IT.
I want to see ALL of our businesses within Brandon prosper. I want it to be all about US.
I would want to work TOGETHER with the leadership of this City to draw MUCH NEEDED TOURISM dollars into Brandon.
I feel that we need MUCH MORE OPENNESS, TRANSPARENCY within City Hall. We need the doors, windows, gates of City Hall opened up in a collaborative, informative, transparent fashion.
We are a growing City. We NEED that Sportsplex Pool. We need MORE facilities. We don't need to remove existing ones!
I think that this is ALL part of having a vision for this City and it's future growth and development.
If we come together, like a functional family within Brandon for a change, we can accomplish GREAT THINGS!
I want to see us reach out and connect with cities and countries ALL OVER the world. We need to become more internationally involved and connected.
The new President of the Brandon Chamber of Commerce is TOTALLY on the RIGHT track. He is absolutely who this City needs at this hour.
God WANTS TO prosper us, bless us, give us favor, etc. within this City.
I want to see MAJOR CONCERTS, promotions, you name it from Brandon.
I would use MY OWN MONEY and NOT the taxpayer's money in order to kick start a lot of these projects.
I just received a call from a woman who told me that The Brandon School Division is all about connections as to who gets a job and who doesn't within Brandon.
It turns out that the unscrupulous teacher who cheated me had an aunt that worked in the BSD forever.
I want you to know that Maple Leaf asked the Colombian man to ask me to remove my letter from ebrandon.
I submitted this request to the site owner.
I guess that Maple Leaf was embarrassed. (Here we go again!)
My thoughts are that IF you require A TOTAL COMMITMENT, DEDICATION, etc. from your employees that you also owe them THIS SAME COMMITMENT to DELIVER on your promise, via their contract, to bring their families over after two years of dedicated service to you, as their employer.
Can you imagine ANY of us having to be AWAY from our families for a period of two years?
Come on, let's get real here.
Who is going to stand up and fight for these people? They are in a foreign country. Who do they have to speak up for their issues and concerns?
I did an innocent thing by asking for help for this man and I apologize to Maple Leaf that I embarrassed them.
EVERYTHING in this City has ALWAYS been about image, about PRETENDING, putting on facades, masks, faces, KEEPING A LID ON THINGS; making those in power LOOK GOOD AT ALL COSTS, AT ALL COSTS!
Well, that's ENOUGH of that!
Let us finally GET REAL within this City and let's start talking about the REAL ISSUES, the real guts of who we are, where we want to see our City go, what we want, desire, require, etc.
Let us cut the games, crap, facades, masks and let us GET REAL and let us do EVERYTHING WITHIN OUR POWER to help this majority electorate to the BEST of our abilities.
When one family or individual succeeds, we ALL succeed. Let that be our motto or mantra!
I want to ask the Chiefs on these surrounding reserves to sit down at the table.
I would like to work WITH THEM to obtain wind and solar energy for our communities.
I am NOT into the Casino thing because I DON'T believe that you are going to empower a people by giving them blackjack skills.
I want to see MUCH MORE economic development within Brandon and on these reserves. I want to see us ALL prosper and benefit.
I want to see us reach out more to all of these lost kids on our streets. Let's get to them BEFORE the gangs do.
I'd like to offer them sports, music or the arts.
Again, IF we work together, we can accomplish GREAT THINGS within this City!
I want to see our current student body TAKE OFF. Let's empower them with debates, let us REWARD THEM, ENCOURAGE THEM and EMPOWER THEM with everything that is available to us.
Let's get STRICTER within our schools about what we tolerate and put up with. Let's work with these parents, let's get EVERYONE ON BOARD.
Parents have told me also that they are INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATED because they have MANY CONCERNS but they are always denied a voice also.
We are ALL connected within this community, like a big family, so let's work TOGETHER and act like it. Let us try to help, work with and take care of one another.
Let's work TOGETHER for the good and betterment of this entire community.
That is why a more collaborative approach is the VERY BEST way to go!
Drew Caldwell and Marlow Kirton were removed from a committee that the Mayor currently serves on because they disagreed with the Mayor and that is just NOT okay.
We need to CHANGE the way that things have been handled and done within this City FOREVER.
We can disagree but this is immature, childish and NOT ACCEPTABLE AT ALL to remove them.
This is just NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE AT ALL!
We need to GROW UP within this City in ALL areas.
I want to seek the PEOPLE'S INPUT on EVERY DECISION within this City.
I want to take it to the people for their feedback on EVERY decision.
I want to see this majority electorate VERY INVOLVED every step of the way and in EVERY decision that is made and we need a leader who is going to LISTEN to the people also and then ACT IMMEDIATELY ON THINGS.
We will NOT agree on EVERY decision but I want the WILL OF THE PEOPLE and/or the MAJORITY DECISION to rule.
That is how a democracy SHOULD work.
IF people feel that they are VERY INVOLVED EVERY STEP OF THE WAY, well, then they are going to feel more connected and engaged and that is what I want to see happen for the citizens of Brandon.
I feel that they have been ALIENATED in the past and I want to see this alienation END after this election.
I also feel that we need a REAL LEADER who is not afraid to lead.
I want to be that leader for the citizens of Brandon!
Did you notice the PATTERN here within MANY areas of leadership within Brandon?
You embarrass them, dare to speak up against them, disagree with them and YOU GET ASKED TO LEAVE, KICKED OFF OF A COMMITTEE, KICKED OUT, etc.
We need to CHANGE the way that things are handled and done within this City in ALL areas!
We have the COLLECTIVE POWER to affect REAL CHANGE within this next election!
It will be up to EACH OF US INDIVIDUALLY AND ALL OF US COLLECTIVELY!
Does that WILL exist within Brandon right now?
I SURE HOPE that it does.
I want to see us move from this Sleepy Hollow boy's club owned, operated and controlled town to a vibrant, pulsating, thriving, dynamic, happening, upbeat, alive, flourishing, prosperous, exciting place!
I want to see us ALL benefit and prosper from decisions that are made!
I want to see the MENTALITY, SPIRIT AND CLIMATE of Brandon change!
I want to see us honor and celebrate more of our countless everyday heroes and volunteers within this City.
I want to see God knock ALL of our socks off with favor, increase, blessings and prosperity!
That is my aim, ambition and ultimate goal for Brandon!
The School Board is meeting on March 1, 2010. They have proposed a 9.1% tax increase.
At the Parent Meeting held at Crocus Plains High School, a parent CLEARLY INDICATED that she had NO VEHICLE and NO MEANS to transport her child to another school.
This will now be required because of the milieu school being put into her child's school.
This meeting was NOT CONTROLLED or CHAIRED by the parents.
The School Board is requiring TWO BRAND NEW GYMNASIUMS at a cost of AT LEAST 2.5 million dollars PER GYMNASIUM for this milieu school!
From what I understand, this has NOT YET EVEN BEEN APPROVED BY THE FINANCE BOARD and who knows HOW LONG this could take to become approved and for shovels to finally hit the ground for these required gymnasiums.
In the meantime, how will our children obtain the required amounts of Phys. Ed. instruction that the Curriculum states that is necessary?
We, as taxpayers, are going to be required to fund the cost of those TWO NEW GYMNASIUMS as well.
Is this ON TOP OF the 9.1% tax increase? We need to KNOW this information.
There is A LOT at stake here for us as taxpayers, for the parents, for the students, for ALL of us.
This decision, as School Board trustee, Bea Jolly expressed was made with the "cart before the horse" literally and figuratively.
School Board Trustee Marty Snelling also expressed concern and cautioned that they should wait for approval for this funding from the Finance Board before proceeding any further.
The concerns of both of these School Board trustees are documented, recorded and indicated in The Brandon Sun newspaper.
We have been COMPLACENT, COMPLIANT within this City forever.
We have NEVER stood up, taken a stand and like the saying goes, "We will get what we tolerate" or "If we don't stand for something, we will fall for anything."
We have let people from outside our community come into our community and say and do whatever to us and we have taken it without a peep.
THIS is yet another reason why I believe that we are at a crossroads within this city.
Our complacency and compliancy have led us to where we currently find ourselves at this hour.
That is how I see things anyway.
Now, what happens IF funding for these two new required gymnasiums is NOT APPROVED? Then what?
That is why I stated and requested that the School Board WAIT until after this next election before proceeding with this milieu school.
I went to a School Board meeting and I asked them to PLEASE WAIT WITH THIS DECISION and to please LET THE ELECTORATE DECIDE IF this milieu school proposal should realistically proceed.
Many parents and community members indicated at the various meetings that they felt that this proposal was PUSHED THROUGH, PUSHED DOWN THEIR THROATS, WITHOUT proper due process, course, procedure and information.
WHO is standing up for and representing the majority electorate within this community now?
I see NO ONE taking a stand here.
Where is our leadership and where are our politicians now?
Can we put forward a non-confidence proposal or motion with this current School Board?
Can we contact the province and express our GREAT CONCERN to them?
What is our next step?
We need to SERIOUSLY ponder and consider this BEFORE the School Board meeting on March 1, 2010.
Deborah seriously you just made five posts saying the same thing over and over and over again. You don't see anything wrong with that?
TRT, could you please verify what I stated about Julie V.A. with the First Nations Carol M. who attends Bethel.
She will tell you what this Julie V.A. has also done to her. She has caused MUCH trouble for her also.
She has told her lies about her neighbors, you name it.
Is there NO CONSEQUENCE when you LIE to your Pastor, to other church members and cause trouble for MANY individuals?
What these women have done is UNFATHOMABLE and I think that they should be brought BEFORE the church, as the Bible says and REBUKED for the MISCHIEF and EVIL that these women have done and caused.
Julie V.A. is tt. Gayle K. is D.F.
These women are PEVERBIAL GOSSIPS, LIARS, TROUBLE MAKERS, idle MISCHIEF MAKING WOMEN.
Gayle K. should GET A JOB and stop pressuring her mother to send her $1000.00 per month to support her.
It's REALLY incredible to me that the individuals with the MOST disorder and dysfunction within their OWN lives are the ones watching, manipulating, judging, trying to control EVERYONE else's.
These women are the MOST DESPICABLE WOMEN that I have ever known in my ENTIRE life.
I've never known MORE DESPICABLE, DISGUSTING women that these three.
D.F. and tt could also be the same person as well.
These women don't act like Christians in ANY SENSE of the word.
I thought that there was suppose to be a DIFFERENCE in your life AFTER you become a Christian.
Please keep these women AWAY from other individuals within this church whom they may also become jealous of and try to hurt with their lies, their gossip, slander and every other vile thing that they spew out of their nasty mouths.
I feel EXTREMELY sorry for any other innocent person that these women may have also hurt or are hurting now.
They appear to have SO MUCH time to watch EVERYONE else!
These women could be easily sued for their mischief.
What they have done is VERY SERIOUS!
Their lies have caused MUCH STRESS for MANY of us and our families.
I want these women brought before the church to account for their gossip, lies, actions and mischievous behavior.
Is that possible, TRT?
I want these women's actions to STOP! I DON'T WANT to see ANY OTHER PERSON hurt by the actions of these women as I, Carol M. and others have been.
There are SEVERAL others including Pastor Mike, I'm sure.
I must try to get that letter to you TRT, from Gayle K. in which she admits to her mischief with my neighbor.
What I am also concerned about is that the Banks are going to SOON RAISE THE INTEREST RATES! I'm NOT SURE WHEN but this is in the works.
This could take place a year from now, two years or next month.
We need to be PREPARED for this.
On the CBC documentary, The Passionate Eye, they stated that in just 20 years, we will need 60% MORE energy.
WHERE is this energy going to come from? We are RUNNING OUT of renewable resources.
They said that the grids are GETTING OLD and with ALL of the heat waves, cold snaps, etc. that we SHOULD EXPECT MORE POWER OUTAGES, disruptions, etc.
Washington and MANY countries are preparing for FOOD SHORTAGES and CIVIL DISORDER.
I think that we should also be PREPARING for this here.
On The Passionate Eye, they stated that they are monitoring the locusts around the world and spraying them profusely when they see that there is an infestation of them rising up ANYWHERE in the world.
This program showed the DAMAGE that these insects CAN DO IF they get OUT OF CONTROL in a region or area.
They can wipe out an agricultural food basket in NO TIME at all!
They said that in as short a time as 20 years, we could be having MAJOR WARS OVER WATER.
I feel that we need to be PREPARED for MANY of these realities by taking some preventative and cautionary steps now.
This is one of the reasons why I feel that we should be focusing on wind and solar energy for our region.
Perhaps we should be planning to build a large Greenhouse in this region in our future.
They stated that MANY ANIMALS and PLANTS are going to be getting diseases and that it is going to be getting harder to buy and sell food.
I heard that there was an 8.8 or something earthquake in Chile today and that they are fearing tsunamis in various places.
They said to expect MUCH MORE OF THIS in the days ahead on The Passionate Eye.
They said that natural disasters are going to INCREASE EXPONENTIALLY in the days ahead.
This also lines up with what the Bible states is going to happen as well.
I just wish that we could bring as many children OUT OF HAITI as possible because it appears that malaria, ALL SORTS OF DISEASES, etc. are going to spring up now that it is the rainy season there.
To anyone reading this, you must be aware that D.F. and tt are two of the HORRENDOUS, HORRIBLE GOSSIPS of Bethel.
You have to also understand that I want NOTHING to do with one and/or both of these women EVER in my life again.
You also have to understand that I'm trying to EXPOSE these individuals for WHO THEY REALLY ARE within this church.
They are on here to defame me, destroy me; saying ALL manner of horrendous lies, slanders, falsehoods about myself to try to take THE BLAME OFF OF THEMSELVES and to instead place this blame onto me.
This is what they have successfully managed to do within Bethel for the past 4 years.
Instead of the church being upset and mad at the APPROPRIATE INDIVIDUALS, they have been mad and upset at myself and I have been VERY UPSET with Bethel.
This is exactly the situation that these two individuals have created. They must be SO PROUD of their accomplishments.
The individuals who are to blame for ALL of this mischief are D.F. and tt.
Now, why doesn't Bethel want to get to the bottom of this? Why wouldn't they want to resolve this and deal with these women expeditiously?
It's beyond me but I'll get the CBC, The Fifth Estate, the PAOC or whomever to get to the bottom of this.
I DESPERATELY WANT THE TRUTH TO GET OUT HERE because then EVERYONE will see who is REALLY to blame for ALL of this nonsense.
I have NO IDEA why Bethel is "putting up" with these women? I have NO IDEA why they are "allowing" these women to CONTINUE in their ABSOLUTE NONSENSE?
Do they have something to cover up or hide as well?
Well, we will ALL soon find out because I am going to REQUEST a COMPLETE INVESTIGATION into everything that involves these women.
NOBODY is going to do to me what these women have done and go unpunished for their actions.
If Bethel doesn't want to deal with these women, then perhaps the PAOC will or perhaps the media will DEMAND this.
These two women DO NOT EXEMPLIFY IN ANY WAY Christian women OR Christianity AT ALL and Bethel SHOULD BE VERY ASHAMED of these two individuals.
Please understand that this is what is going on here on this blog.
There is absolutely NOTHING mentally wrong with me.
I am eccentric, yes and I am passionate but that is all.
I desperately wish that someone from this church would develop a BACKBONE and deal with this Gayle K.
I DON'T WANT HER COMING TO MY NEW CHURCH.
DO I HAVE TO GET THE BRANDON CITY POLICE INVOLVED IN THIS?
I WANT HER TO TOTALLY STAY AWAY FROM ME.
TRT, could you please speak to this woman and tell her to STAY AWAY FROM MY CHURCH?
She is a CONTROLLING, DEMON POSSESSED GOSSIP AND WITCH and IF you don't speak to her I will HAVE TO involve the Brandon City Police.
This is EXACTLY what another neighbor is doing with one of Gayle's other friends.
He has now taken Gayle's friend to court and charged her with mischief and he has also requested that she stay away from his church.
Her name is Colleen, I believe.
Gayle and Colleen are FRIENDS.
Colleen has a HISTORY of calling the Police on her neighbors and of causing trouble.
My good God, there should be a Bylaw that deals with women such as this that CONTINUE to cause UNPARALLED GRIEF for and to their neighbors and others!
TRT, COULD YOU PLEASE DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS AND KEEP THIS WOMAN AWAY FROM ME?
Do I HAVE TO involve the BCP?
IF I have to, I will.
I want NOTHING FURTHER to do with this woman EVER AGAIN, EVER! NOTHING.
TRT, you have to PLEASE UNDERSTAND how MUCH TROUBLE AND DAMAGE THIS WOMAN HAS CAUSED FOR MYSELF AND MY FAMILY so PLEASE HELP ME BY KEEPING HER AWAY FROM ME!
I'm TOTALLY DONE with her. She's OUT OF MY LIFE and I want NOTHING FURTHER TO DO WITH HER EVER AGAIN, EVER.
TRT, why is NOTHING being done about these women at Bethel?
This woman has a lot of GAUL, I tell you. She has a lot of nerve, considering WHAT SHE HAS DONE and how she helped my neighbor take my 9 yr. old daughter's puppy, how she has gossiped about me at Bethel, lied to Pastor Mike and others about myself, etc.
I TRULY BELIEVE that she is just coming to my new church to stir something up again, to get something going or to get me to react to her; to get me riled up.
PLEASE KEEP HER AWAY FROM ME! PLEASE!
I believe her to be D.F. on here or tt or both.
PLEASE DO WHAT YOU CAN TO HELP ME, TRT.
My good God, this has just been HORRIBLE for ALL of us!
Does something further have to happen BEFORE you guys will do something over there?
That's ENOUGH now for me.
My other concern is that a Pastor of a church is REPEATEDLY telling his congregation to honor a Mayor that MANY of us want to see replaced.
Is this abusing your power and position when you are also a "friend" of the Mayor and you also belong to the SAME political party as the Mayor does?
Is this not a boy's club thing right there in itself?
I have NOTHING against Mr. Burgess personally but I REALLY CARE about what is in the BEST INTERESTS of this city and the MAJORITY of this electorate.
Anonymous, I CANNOT post comments or contribute to the Discussions on ebrandon.
The site administrator could be being told that they will shut him down IF he allows me on this.
WHO KNOWS?
THIS IS HOW THINGS GO IN BRANDON! THIS IS HOW THEY'VE ALWAYS GONE.
That is why a few of us so DESPERATELY want to see CHANGE in this upcoming election.
Now, Anonymous, I have always stated that I may not be the right person to lead us.
If I am not, fine, but then let's get Shari in or someone else but LET'S JUST GET NEW LEADERSHIP IN BRANDON IN THIS NEXT ELECTION!
I am standing up to be counted for the CITIZENS, for a change.
People can criticize all they want but at least I AM TRYING DESPERATELY TO DO SOMETHING POSITIVE FOR THE PEOPLE AND TO SEE CHANGE COME FOR BRANDON.
Who else other than Shari right now is doing that?
We BOTH see and KNOW that things MUST CHANGE IF WE HOPE TO BE A MAJOR PLAYER IN THE DAYS THAT LIE AHEAD for us as a City.
Our politicians will tell you that they are INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATED ALSO but they want to be politically correct and they also know the CONSEQUENCES in this town of making your TRUE FEELINGS known.
There ARE consequences.
Would I have gone through and be going through what I am IF I had chosen to just remain quiet?
I HARDLY think so but it will be worth it all IF we acquire NEW LEADERSHIP and if we FINALLY TAKE OFF AS A CITY here.
It will be A VERY GOOD THING for us ALL. That is what I am after here.
There is NOTHING in this for me.
I have NO vested business interest.
I DON'T belong to any boy's club, girl's club, etc.
I just REALLY want to see POSITIVE CHANGE come for the CITIZENS of Brandon!
I want to see us ALL PROSPER and TAKE OFF as a City!
I want to see ACTION, LOTS OF ACTION in and around Brandon!
I want to see God bless us with favor, blessings, opportunities, prosperity, increase, etc.
I want to see Him KNOCK OUR SOCKS OFF with these things in Brandon!
Can we have this? Yes, I do believe that we can.
Am I the RIGHT FIT or the RIGHT PERSON to lead Brandon?
I don't know. IF I am not, then let us do EVERYTHING within our power to get that RIGHT person in.
If it's Shari, then I am prepared to encourage EVERYONE to swing their vote over to her but let's get some DESPERATE, NECESSARY and NEEDED CHANGE now within Brandon.
I am putting my name forward because I've HAD ENOUGH NOW. I can't STAND THIS NONSENSE ANY LONGER!
I see where we currently are and I see where WE COULD BE as a City and I want to help get us to WHERE WE COULD BE.
I REALLY CARE and I see the DESPERATE NEED for more Affordable Housing within Brandon.
I see HOW the majority electorate is CONTINUALLY and REPEATEDLY being disrespected. For example, by the School Board with this milieu decision, etc.
How can you see these things and NOT do something about trying to IMPROVE this situation?
Isn't this a moral responsibility that we have to see that ALL citizens are treated fairly and to the BEST of our ability within this City?
This is how I see things.
I want to fight for the best interests of this MAJORITY electorate.
I am NOT interested in seeing these boys prosper at OUR EXPENSE ANY LONGER.
I've HAD ENOUGH of that scenario.
I am FOR THE PEOPLE! ALL of the people!
Like I said, if it is felt that Shari would do a better job and if that is the sentiment of the people, then let's go with Shari but LET US SEE AND LET US GET SOME REAL, NECESSARY, POSITIVE CHANGE IN THIS NEXT ELECTION!
Otherwise, what we have ALL experienced living here in Brandon is just going to continue FOREVER!
This decision is ultimately going to be UP TO ALL OF US!
WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE! WE CAN CHANGE THINGS WITHIN THIS CITY! YES, WE CAN and I think that WE SHOULD!
I REALLY think that it is TIME NOW!
So first i'm this gayle lady (sorry, i'm not, I think we've been over this a few times now.) and suddenly i'm now tt? which is it, or are you having a hard time keeping your accusations straight too?
You can accuse me as much as you want, but it won't change the truth. I don't live in MB at all (i've even offered that my ip address can be traced to verify it). I don't know what you think accusing me of being this person is going to accomplish? Your going off on these paranoid rants, asking a stranger (trt) to make some woman stay away from you. Does this seem like the behavior of someone who isn't troubled?
I don't know this gayle or the other person (i can't remember the name of who this other person you're saying tt is), so i couldn't tell you if they're gossips, liars, ect. or what their deal is, nor do i really care. My issues are the crazy stories you're telling about pastor Mike and the church.
Going off on these weird rants and accusations doesn't lend any credibility to your stories.
Deborah, what are the lies that I've told? Seriously please list them? Its easy to toss around the word "liar" but you need to back it up. So what lies is it that you think I've told? I really don't care if you think I'm Gayle or whats her name, etc... I've said I'm not, heck I've even admitted to knowing who they are (although not friends with them, seriously I"m about 30 years younger than them and have no desire to hang out with them). Honoring the mayor has nothing to do with agreeing with him. You can disagree, heck you can even vote for another person with out repercussion from the church. I know that not everyone voted for mayor Dave (hey I've only voted for him once in the entire time he's been mayor of the city), nor does everyone agree with all he's done or is doing. Honoring is about not insulting them, not name calling etc.. which is what you did to them. BTW media has a way of fear mongering, so you might want to actually check the stats on those things with more that what you heard in a documentary, I'm thinking you'll find it less scary. (that being a major reason why you shouldn't be mayor. We need someone who has their feet planted on the ground and doesn't sway with the latest gossip from the news etc.. but has the knowledge to check things out before over reacting).
D.F. if you don't live in Manitoba then why are you so concerned with what Deborah has to say? Deborah how is ebrandon stopping you from commenting or making posts that you would like to respond to? Regards S.
Anonymous,
Because I grew up in Brandon, and up until I moved i attended Bethel. I've already mentioned it in previous posts.
I still visit it quite often when I'm in Brandon on vacations/long weekends, so i still very much care about the church and am in touch with it.
S, I'm BLOCKED from further responding to any of the Discussion Forums.
I have tried and I'm NOT ABLE to respond to any of these.
This privilege has been removed.
TRT, please check with Lisa, Carol M. and the woman that Gayle K. lived with.
No, sick and troubled women, I'm NOT getting my stories from the news.
I'm getting them from the horses' mouths.
I've attended these meetings and heard these things FOR MYSELF from these school trustees themselves and so did everyone else who attended these meetings in person.
REPEATEDLY telling your congregation to honor the Mayor sounds like a conflict of interest to me.
Your "friend" is the Mayor, you both belong to the SAME political party.
MOST of your congregation is Conservative.
The "coveted" prize is being able to pray at City Hall.
This all sounds like a CONFLICT OF INTEREST to me.
Where was this prayer of honoring the leadership when the Liberals formed the Federal Govt. of Canada?
No, I WAS WITH the Conservatives when we met SECRETLY in Winnipeg and planned strategically how we were going to defeat this Government.
Pastors and leaders from ALL OVER CANADA flew in to be present at this meeting.
Pastor Mike took a group from Bethel into Wpg. and I went with them.
The media NEVER KNEW about this meeting because they were never made aware about it.
I DON'T THINK THAT IT IS PROPER or APPROPRIATE for a Pastor to CONSTANTLY be talking to his congregation about honoring this Mayor.
This sounds like a form of "control", influence to me.
Pastor Mike is DEFINITELY influencing his congregation AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.
Is Pastor Mike abusing his position as a Pastor to help his friend to get re-elected again and again and again?
There is a "payoff" for Pastor Mike because he gets to pray at City Hall.
I NEVER hear this message from my current Pastor.
My current Pastor repeatedly prays for GOD'S WILL to be accomplished over Brandon and NOT man's will.
Is Pastor Mike going after man's will for personal, selfish gain or reasons?
I will be asking the PAOC to investigate this situation.
Like I said, NO STONE is going to be left uncovered.
I want these women brought FORWARD and held to account for ALL of their lies, gossip, slander and EVIL actions towards me within this church, with my neighbors, etc.
Is that what you do when you are a Christian?
How is their behavior ANY DIFFERENT from the world?
Actually, I've seen BETTER BEHAVED INDIVIDUALS from the world than the behavior of these women.
Is Bethel trying to cover something up?
Why do they hesitate to meet with me?
Wouldn't you WANT to get to the truth and find out what that is?
Wouldn't you WANT to get to the bottom of things?
WHAT is their hesitation?
Is Pastor Mike INFLUENCING the other Pastors and therefore their congregations because of his influence within the Brandon Ministerial Association?
Well, I think that we should all find out?
Are these Pastors believing EVERY word that he says because he is a Pastor?
Has Pastor Mike LIED to any of these Pastors?
I think that I have a RIGHT to know, ESPECIALLY if it involves myself.
There is a HISTORY of Christians supporting the Conservative Party of Canada; just like the Christians in the U.S. support the Republican party.
Satan is VERY DECEPTIVE AND CLEVER!
Are people blindly supporting the Conservatives here in this city simply because that is what they've ALWAYS done?
The Christians within the LARGEST CHURCH in Brandon are REPEATEDLY hearing a message from within their church to honor this Mayor and the current leadership over Brandon.
WHY is there a need to CONSTANTLY REPEAT THIS MESSAGE within this church?
WHAT is the REAL REASON for this or behind this?
I have NEVER heard a message like this in the church that I currently now attend or in ANY other of the many churches that I have also attended here in Brandon.
Has Pastor Mike told lies to other Pastors within this Brandon Ministerial Association about myself?
I will ask the PAOC or some other group to investigate this.
I want to get to the BOTTOM of EVERY situation that involves myself.
I used to hold Pastor Mike in high regard and esteem also until after I received this letter from him.
He NEVER ONCE met with me, tried to meet with me, tried to get this straightened out with myself, get to the bottom of this, get to the truth, etc.
In the last days, there will be FALSE PROPHETS, FALSE WITNESSES, you name it.
IF Pastor Mike is one of them, I'm going to do EVERYTHING within my power to EXPOSE HIM AS SUCH.
I said IF and IF he is NOT, then he will be EXONERATED for that also.
I TRULY hope that he is NOT. I TRULY do.
IF Pastor Mike is part of the problem within this city then I want this uncovered and exposed.
I have NOTHING to hide. Do you?
WHY haven't we met already to get this straightened out?
Wouldn't you WANT to know about a problem within your congregation so that you could STRAIGHTEN IT OUT, FIX IT and/or CORRECT it?
If not, WHY NOT?
CD host! The Brandon School Board REVERSED THEIR DECISION!
It is in today's Brandon Sun!
I DON'T KNOW how to forward a copy of this Editorial to you!
OMG! BRAVO FOR THE CITIZENS OF BRANDON!
They met on Friday in an EMERGENCY MEETING!
Can WE COLLECTIVELY MAKE A DIFFERENCE?
YES, WE CAN!
SEE WHAT WE CAN DO!
WE CAN DO THIS WITH EVERY DECISION THAT INVOLVES US WITHIN BRANDON!
BRAVO FOR THE PEOPLE!
FINALLY, some PROGRESS for the CITIZENS OF BRANDON!
We should feel SO EMPOWERED, STRENGTHENED and ENCOURAGED by this!
THANK YOU JESUS! HALLELUJAH!
Beating the U.S. in "our game" of hockey on the final day of the Olympics was INCREDIBLY EXCITING! (Sorry American CD host.)
NOW THIS IS THE ICING ON THE CAKE!
BRAVO, RESIDENTS OF BRANDON!
BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Colombian man from Brandon also SUCCESSFULLY got his family over to Canada THANKS TO A COUPLE FROM OUR CHURCH WHO PERSONALLY WENT OVER THERE TO THE EMBASSY IN COLOMBIA!
We met them at church on Sunday!
This is a VERY GOOD DAY INDEED!!!!!
First thing first, I have a hard time believing Pastor Davis would take you anywhere with him. Let alone a "secret conservative meeting" lol. Second. Many Christians do vote Conservative. thats because Conservatives line up the closest with Christians in moral values. (ie abortion, euthanasia both of which are strongly opposed by Christians). Third, any church could go pray at city hall lol, it is not something put aside solely for Bethel. In fact other churches do pray there as well. Again you'll call me a liar etc.. but you have yet to show me where I lied? I backed up everything I said, it wasn't based on gossip etc.. So please do show me exactly what I lied about?
Deborah meeting with you is like repeatedly walking into a brick wall. Pointless and you don't get any further. It doesn't matter what happens you get angry if some one doesn't agree with you. and its unlikely that anyone will agree with you. You go on the attack and name call etc.. Why would anyone put up with that abuse and meet with you?
Deborah,
I'm sorry I can't talk to people about these things. Discussion on here is as close as I will bring myself into whatever this is.
As for a few "theological" things.
Romans 13:1,5,7
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God........(5)Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience........(7)Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
1 Peter 2:13-17
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
Now, the thing to remember with the passage in 1 Peter, is that the Kings he was referring to weren't the most popular people either. In fact many Christians at this time were being accused of false crimes and of being a threat to society by the leadership. Yet, Peter still directs everyone to honor the King.
It isn't conflict of interest to preach that you must honour those in leadership/authority, it's scripture.
As for the perk of praying in City Hall. As I've mentioned before, that is not a Bethel exclusive event, it's open to all Christians, AND as stated by the mayor in an interview with the Brandon Sun, other faiths are welcome to do the same.
Deborah --
Congrads on your win at the school board and in hockey.
This is a win for the MAJORITY ELECTORATE of Brandon!
Thank you CD host, Anonymous, Bill Baker and a few others for your CONTINUED SUPPORT on this blog!
I wrote a Letter to the Editor today congratulating the Brandon Chamber of Commerce and this MAJORITY ELECTORATE WHO ROSE UP TO AND FOR THIS OCCASION!
I will paste this on here as soon as I find out how to do this.
TRT, must you preach about honoring this Mayor at almost EVERY OTHER church service?
It's EXTREMELY HANDY that this church and this Mayor, this Board ALL belong to the SAME political party and that your Pastor and MANY Board members, members of this congregation are also "friends" with this Mayor.
What if this Mayor is part of the problem with us NOT being able to take off as a city?
Then what?
You STILL keep voting him in and you still keep INFLUENCING your congregation WEEK AFTER WEEK with this SAME MANTRA/MESSAGE just because he belongs to your coveted Conservative Party?
I am FOR the people, the citizens of Brandon.
I am NOT for ANY SPECIFIC POLITICAL PARTY or those in power whose decisions REPEATEDLY benefit their relatives, their friends, a church perhaps, boy's club members, etc.
Just because Mayor Dave belongs to the Conservative Party DOES NOT mean that he has THIS COMMUNITIES' BEST INTERESTS at heart.
We have seen TIME AND TIME AGAIN in this city where decisions were made that were CLEARLY NOT in the BEST INTERESTS of this community or this majority electorate but rather appeared to be more in the BEST INTERESTS of a chosen, coveted few; a brother perhaps, friends, partisan politics, etc.
WHY was I NOT sent a letter from Bethel after I criticized the Liberal Party of Canada?
This criticism of them was printed in The Brandon Sun newspaper.
I DID NOT hear from Bethel then.
IF your message is a consistent one, then where was my letter from Bethel asking me to find another church to worship in, after I wrote this letter?
I was with a group of individuals that went secretly to Wpg. Pastor Len and SEVERAL others from Bethel were there also.
The announcement and invite was made at church to everyone.
I was starting to become VERY INTERESTED in politics at that time and I SURE WASN'T going to miss a meeting of this stature.
TRT, are we only to honor the King IF he is a Conservative King?
We sure got involved in EVERY WAY POSSIBLE to affect change when the Federal leadership of Canada was run by the Liberal Party.
What IF Mayor Dave has the church and the Christians FOOLED?
Then what?
Do you then still BLINDLY honor this King JUST because he is a Conservative?
Do you keep voting this Mayor in repeatedly JUST BECAUSE he belongs to the RIGHT political party?
What about if you KNOW or you SEE corrupt things going on that are NOT FAIR?
Do you still honor this King and just IGNORE the majority of the people that this King was ELECTED, BY THE PEOPLE, TO SERVE AND TO REPRESENT?
Do we just stick our heads in the sand on this issue also because after all he is from the RIGHT political party?
Is this what we are to do?
Doesn't God USE PEOPLE to affect POSITIVE CHANGE within our communities or am I just to pray for this King, NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES, EVEN IF IT APPEARS TO BE DISHONEST OR NOT ON THE UP AND UP, or even IF the majority electorate appears to be GETTING RIPPED OFF CONSISTENTLY and REPEATEDLY by and/or with his leadership?
I'm TOTALLY STUNNED that you would not want to PURSUE the actions of lying, trouble making gossips within your church but that you would RATHER take such a HARD LINE, FIRM STANCE against myself.
It appears that the PRIORITIES of this church are SOMEWHAT MISPLACED.
Like I said in a much earlier post, then call yourselves a Conservative Assembly and NOT a Christian Assembly.
Have the POLITICS of this church surpassed and/or dulled the CHRISTIAN aspect of this church?
You are essentially indicating that you CONDONE THE HORRIBLE ACTIONS TOWARDS MYSELF AND MY DAUGHTER by these trouble making gossips.
Is it because these women support the RIGHT political leadership in the eyes of this church?
You DON'T WANT TO DO ANYTHING TO CORRECT THIS BEHAVIOR but you will go to ALL STOPS to correct ANYONE who stands UP TO this Mayor to make him ACCOUNTABLE to the people?
Something sounds VERY out of whack and hypocritical with this scenario!
TRT, your actions at this church sound VERY SIMILAR to the Pharisees in Jesus' time.
They were also legalistic and "bound by rules."
They criticized Jesus for healing people on a Sabbath day! God forbid!
They criticized Jesus for ALLOWING a prostitute to wash His feet with her hair and her expensive perfume.
It appears that Bethel may have become our modern day Church of the Pharisees.
I think that people EVERYWHERE are looking for the REAL MEAL DEAL in Christianity and the so-called Christian church!
I think that ANYTHING THAT IS FAKE IS A TURN OFF and NOT appreciated by anyone.
I want to offer people REAL CHRISTIANITY in that I want my ACTIONS to line up and REFLECT MY BELIEFS in a 24/7 relationship.
I REALLY CARE about Brandon and about this majority electorate.
I want to see EVERYONE BLESSED and BENEFIT from living in Brandon.
NOT just members of the Conservative Party but EVERYONE!
I believe that this is God's Will that EVERYONE BE BLESSED.
I see THIS as being the Will of God.
I also want to see this majority electorate PROSPER SIGNIFICANTLY from decisions that are made from City Hall.
I want to see GOD'S WILL DONE IN BRANDON as it is in Heaven!
I want to see God KNOCK OUR SOCKS OFF WITH FAVOR, PROSPERITY, BLESSINGS, OPPORTUNITIES, etc.
God KNOWS my intentions and my heart for this city.
I'm sorry that the leadership of your church and your coveted Political Party is offended but I make NO APOLOGIES FOR FIGHTING FOR AND STICKING UP FOR BETTER CONDITIONS AND ABUNDANCE FOR THE PEOPLE!
My heart is FOR THE PEOPLE irregardless of the political party that is in power.
People come WAY BEFORE the loyalties or self interests of ANY political party!
You also have to know that Mayor Dave was VERY ANGRY with the President of the Firefighters Assoc. because he also stood up for the firefighters and demanded better regarding the Fire Hall debate, the debaucle that is the Fire Hall, etc.
Mayor Dave DID NOT AND WOULD NOT send this man a Christmas card from City Hall that year.
Is that ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR from our leader at City Hall?
Another woman indicated to me that our Mayor had been NICE to her face but then talked about her behind her back and she found out about this.
Don't you think that we DESERVE BETTER TREATMENT than this?
I SURE DO.
What were trustees thinking, March 1, 2010
BRAVO to the Brandon Chamber of Commerce, to this majority electorate for FINALLY taking a stand on an issue, rising up and affecting REAL CHANGE within this city for once!
BRAVO!
We can do this with EVERY decision that affects us within Brandon.
When we take a stand individually and then collectively, we can make the difference within this city.
We have the collective power! We just need the collective will from the people.
We saw that with this decision!
Bravo majority electorate of Brandon!
This decision reversal should inspire and empower all of us within Brandon.
Collectively, we are a force to be reckoned with within this city.
I'm very happy to see that this electorate finally woke up from their slumber.
Again, thank you and huge kudos to the very effective, dynamic leadership at the Brandon Chamber of Commerce!
They and their membership are a force to be taken very seriously within this city and hopefully will be such within this upcoming municipal election.
Bravo! Congratulations to everyone who was involved in affecting this desired outcome!
This is just the icing on the cake after our very incredible hockey triumph at the Olympics!
Bravo!
So what decision did the school board over turn?
Pssttt cd host, its congrats......
What happened to all the posts? there are a little over 30 posts missing?
TT --
Are you sure regarding the missing posts? If so, which ones? I didn't delete anything.
Seriously?
I don't attend Bethel. If you must know, I currently attend CT, and have for 2 years now. I attended about 4 years ago, but left because I had to move to Saskatoon for work. When I came back to Brandon, I chose a different church due to certain belief differences,(Differences that do not relate to this conversation), and wanted a bit of a change. Please stop assuming everyone currently belongs to this church.
"I'm TOTALLY STUNNED that you would not want to PURSUE the actions of lying, trouble making gossips within your church but that you would RATHER take such a HARD LINE, FIRM STANCE against myself."
I never have taken a stand against you. I have in fact both agreed and disagreed with you. I have both agreed and disagreed with the other two main posters. I am simply discussing. If you make a claim that preaching honour for leadership is unbiblical, I will disagree with you. When another claimed that the PAOC doesn't practice excommunication, I disagreed with them. When others make a claim that you were partially asked to leave because of assault charges, I disagreed with them. I have tried my best to not take a side in this conversation.
During my time at Bethel, I never heard this same message about honour every other week like you claim.
There were never sermons directing people which party to vote for at elections. Instead there were sermons pleading people to pray about who they vote for, and vote for the party who each individual feels better represents God's will.
As for what it means to honour the leader. I never indicated that this means you must vote for whoever is in leadership. Honour does not mean blindly following. You can respectfully disagree with someone, you can give someone honour and still question their decisions. I think you have confused honour, with blindly following.
We have been blessed this way, to live in a democracy. We live in a democracy where, if a leader is not doing their job, there is a proper procedure to have them removed. If we feel certain freedoms, liberties, values are threatened, we can have an influence over whether or not the leader remains in power. This is not dishonouring leadership.
However, the Bible still clearly states that "The King" (in our case, Mayor, Premier, Prime Minister) is worthy of our honour and respect regardless of their affiliations or deeds. The bible says to give honour EVEN their wishes attempt to supersede the commands of God, even if the king want's to kill or harm you, even if the king "has the church fooled". An example of this kind of honour Shadrak Meshak and Abendigo. Their leaders wishes went against the commandments of God, so they would not obey. However, in the story we see them respectfully deny the demand. They don't hoot and holler, they don't call the leader names, or threaten in any way they basically said, "We want you to know, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up."
As I said previously. The 'King' that the Christians Peter was writing to, would make Burgess seem like a saint. And unforunately for those Christians, they didn't have a say in who was King.
I cannot speak on behalf of Bethel as to why some things happened, yet other things did not. I don't attend there, and when I did, I was never in any place of leadership. All I can do is offer my opinion, as this whole situation has always interested me.
"You are essentially indicating that you CONDONE THE HORRIBLE ACTIONS TOWARDS MYSELF AND MY DAUGHTER by these trouble making gossips."
I have never said anything like that. I have questioned your interpretations of the events compared to others, not because I want to say that you're wrong, but because I want to know the truth. There hasn't been compelling evidence from either side regarding the puppy. Assuming the story is how indicate it to be, I question whether or not the actions of the individuals are in fact connected to the church as you have suggested, or if it is simply a mean spirited person. I cannot question properly why the Church didn't deal with certain people because, this situation (regarding the dog) has no clear true side yet.
"I'm sorry that the leadership of your church and your coveted Political Party is offended"- One more time, I don't attend this church. I even told you the church that I do currently attend. Further more, I have never voted for Burgess, and I didn't vote Conservative last provincial or federal election.
As far as for the request for you to leave. I have in previous posts, indicated that, knowing as little about all this as I know, I felt the request to leave to be a bit of an over reaction.
Again, please don't confuse honour with blind obedience/re-election.
What were the trustees thinking is the letter I sent to the Brandon Sun.
Mayor Dave's CAMPAIGN MANAGER and MOST of his CAMPAIGN TEAM in the last election were from Bethel Christian (should be Conservative) Assembly.
Please REMEMBER this fact.
This church has a cozy little relationship with the Mayor's office.
The Mayor and the Pastors are FRIENDS and belong to the SAME POLITICAL PARTY and REPEATEDLY the congregation of this church is told to HONOR the LEADERSHIP OF BRANDON.
This is NOT a one time message but rather a CONSISTENT MESSAGE within this church.
Is this political interference? Is this abusing your position of authority as the Pastor of a church to DIRECTLY INFLUENCE your congregation towards a certain political party?
"TRT, must you preach about honoring this Mayor at almost EVERY OTHER church service?"
Just so I'm clear, who are you accusing trt of being? Sounds almost to me like you're accusing him now of being pastor Mike. (Crazy eh, that when he didn't do what you wanted, you started to make up accusations against him too. He's not doing what deborah wants, so lets slander him too right? Seems like quite the pattern you're developing.)
TT, The school board didn't really overturn a ruling, there had been discussions to raise the (School tax?) to 9%, but it was decided to raise it to only 3% I believe. There was a thread on ebrandon last week about it.
CD host, on sunday I believe there were 639 posts, but the number is down quite a bit by that, (according to the commment counter thing) Not sure which posts it would be though.
cd host its showing up as 609 comments when yesterday there were 638 not including the most recent ones here.
um Deborah, trt is not Pastor Mike...and why do you seem to think you won something if a majority elected it? How is this a victory for you and people seeing your side? lol
TRT --
I think for clarity its important to distinguish:
1) The letter in the paper which was essentially a call to form a PAC.
2) Latter comments which basically charge the secular leadership with all sorts of misdeeds.
Boschman was excommunicated based on (1) not based on (2). I think it is clear that a church could reasonably hold that after the excommunication her later acts were inconsistent with the biblical command to honor and thus hold that after a proper appeal resulting in her acquittal on (1) new charges could be brought regarding (2).
As I've mentioned above Davis has with respect to this case failed to honor the secular leadership in their investigation into his misdeeds. Boschman has now actually run for office twice. I don't think Deborah is wrong in viewing those two contexts as very different. Davis is arguing he has the right to ignore his government's formal structures, in particular those put in place to investigate social situations of community interest where no actual criminal act has taken place, while claiming that he is fully honoring the government by supporting those persons within the government who agree with his positions; while Boschman is utilizing the formal structures and just being somewhat rude in the process. Of course more importantly, he is a sitting pastor she is excommunicated lay person.
what secular leadership did he fail to honour in allowing them to not to investigate? The only thing he has done is refuse to give the media an interview, which is not in leadership over him. Davis isn't arguing at all, infact he's doing a really great job at just ignoring the media who'll twist whatever story they can to get themselves more readers/viewers. As we can see Deborah herself proved she wasn't excommunicated so I don't think I need to argue that point. Also you haven't mentioned why there are over 30 posts missing since yesterday?
CD host, I'm sorry that I appear rude.
TRT, thank you for clarifying.
I am just FOR THE PEOPLE and time and time and time again, we have seen decisions made within this city that simply DO NOT BENEFIT the people.
They DO benefit a small group of men but NOT the majority electorate, in my opinion.
THIS is when I get riled up.
I see that Brandon has SO MUCH POTENTIAL to do this and that, host this and that and have this and that industry and yet we have NONE of this.
TRT, I was VERY BETRAYED by this one gossip from Bethel who WENT BEHIND MY BACK AND THEN HELPED MY NEIGHBOR.
This is SUPPOSE to be a Christian woman.
The ONLY thing she DIDN'T do was to kiss my cheek BEFORE she betrayed myself AND my daughter.
I am REALLY QUITE DISGUSTED with the behavior of SOME of these so-called Christians from this church, their Pastor, etc.
I just feel that things have gone somewhat OFF TRACK within this church. Myself and my family have been DIRECTLY AND DEEPLY AFFECTED by this misconstrued version of what I believe Christianity in fact to be.
I really expected these individuals to be WHO they CLAIMED TO BE and NOT COUNTERFEIT VERSIONS of who they claimed to be.
Are these the ACTIONS of TRUE CHRISTIANS?
I don't think that they are.
You ask someone to leave your church BASED ON A LIE from a WELL KNOWN GOSSIP?
You then involve yourself with my neighbors and HELP THEM to take away a 9 yr. old little girl's puppy that was a gift from her father?
You LIE, bear false witness, spread rumors, runaway train rumors.
You do ALL of these things AND MORE and then you continue to call yourself a Christian?
My version and definition of what a Christian TRULY IS, is NOT CONSISTENT WITH nor does it MATCH the behavior of some of these individuals within this church.
My family and I have been DEEPLY, DEEPLY HURT with and by their actions, lies and nonsense.
It appears that if you are "good, little sheep" and you NEVER question the leadership of this city, I'm sure that you will get along fine at this church.
I mean the gossips are STILL THRIVING over there.
There is something wrong at the ROOT LEVEL at this church in my opinion.
I am a VERY kind, sensitive, considerate, caring individual and yet I have been branded as ANYTHING BUT what I TRULY am and all for what reason?
Just because I want to see NEW LEADERSHIP over Brandon?
This makes me this awful person because I want to see SO MUCH MORE FOR ALL OF THE CITIZENS OF BRANDON?
I TOTALLY don't understand the logic, rationale or reasoning of these individuals.
TRT, when we stand before God, you will see HOW they stole my daughter's puppy, HOW they were involved EVERY step of the way, what they did and said, etc.
It will be EXACTLY as I have stated on this blog.
Gayle K., from Bethel, who was involved in ALL of this, even told me herself how it all went down.
It was EXACTLY as I have stated on here.
This is how you behave and what you do when you are a REAL Christian, right?
NOT in my books.
I agree,
Ms Boschman was 'excommunicated' based on her letter. I have never indicated that I thought otherwise. The charge was that her letter did not honor leadership the way the bible commands us to. All evidence we have shows that the leadership at Bethel found her letter to be dishonourable towards to leadership of the city. There's no indication that it was because of her ideas, actions, or anything else.
-Do I agree with the charge? No, not really
-Do I agree with the decision? I don't understand the decision, but I agree that they were in their rights to make this decision.
- Do I agree with how the decision was handled? No. PAOC constitution indicates discipline manners must be done in person, with a board member present (with members, but I common sense to me says that you would follow the same guidline for non-members). It was handled poorly. A personal meeting would have likely prevented this whole media situation.
Re: Davis
What secular leadership has he failed to respond to? The media? I don't really think CBC, The Brandon Sun, or any other news outlet constitutes as an authority/leader. The CBC's mandate is only to the CBC to provide an opportunity. The pastor, or anyone else has every right to keep their silence without endangering the CBC's ability to perform the tasks mandated to them. The mandate does not make them an official investigatory agency for the government.
Deborah --
You haven't been rude to me. Nothing to apologize for.
"You ask someone to leave your church BASED ON A LIE from a WELL KNOWN GOSSIP?"
Which is it deborah, Your claiming that this gossip got you kicked out, I thought it was outlined in the letter as to why you got kicked out, and gossip certainly wasn't mentioned in there.
What lie was it that they asked you to leave over? You've claimed that you were kicked out because of your letter to your editor. (and the letter you received that quite clearly said that you should consider finding a new church that holds up to what you value, thats not kicked out or 'excommunicated' in my books.) Now you're saying they kicked you out based on gossip? where does it say that in your letter? where does pastor Mike mention that at all? or again, are you just inserting your stories in there? Seriously, we've heard so many versions about the same story, is there even one that has a truth in it? Its like you take one small true event and fabricate this huge story around it.
TRT --
Well first off the pastor considered her a member of his congregation in the excommunication, i.e. he was responsible for her actions. So the defense that she wasn't a member doesn't seem to hold because he indicated he was treating her like a member.
We definitely disagree strongly on the seriousness of his process violations. It wasn't Davis' decision to make, unilaterally so there was no "they" only a "he" and he was not within his rights. He was within his rights to charge her, but no to charge and convict. Beyond a meeting she is entitled to vastly more protections.
As for the CBC's status I've quoted their charter under the law, they are required to act as an investigative arm for the public on matters of public interest. Davis like anyone else has the right to refuse to cooperate the CBC, they can't compel testimony but it is dishonoring to the government to ignore their direct instructions regarding matters of public interest. And yes I understand you don't agree with the CBC that this is a matter of public interest.
And finally lets not forget this is an ongoing sin on Davis' part. He has refused her repeated attempts to get a fair appeal.
TT --
I have no idea why posts are missing. I didn't mass delete or anything like that.
DF --
We've beaten this horse to death.
A revocation of membership that is contested is an excommunication.
An excommunication is a public act. If Davis' defense is that he did not in fact excommunicate her and that she is welcome to return to the church then he has an obligation to indicate that publicly given that the public believes he excommunicated her. Her not being excommunicated doesn't get Davis off the hook as far as misconduct.
Davis owes her clear statements of charges. clear statements of status.... His refusal to do so, so that rumors can fester (or be fed by him) that she was excommunicated for assault or theft doesn't mitigate his gross misconduct.
Davis is a man who persistently abuses his authority and has persistently refused to allow the effects of his misconduct to be remedied. Jeffrey Dahmer was a nice guy accept that every few months he raped, tortured, dismembered and cannibalized someone. The fact that Davis is mostly a good guy is no more relevant than Dahmer mowing lawns for the old people in his neighborhood. If Davis was really a good guy he would be following the structures he preaches on.
The only reason the public would think that she was excommunicated is because deborah told them that. Pastor Mike has no obligation to publically announce she wasn't excommunicated, he didn't publically announce her to be excommunicated in the first place! It was deborah who went to the papers and who went around telling other's she was kicked out. And by her own words when she spoke to the church she was told that they Couldn't/wouldn't say she can't come to the church. I would imagine that when one is excommunicated, they Would be telling her not to come back.
As for the CBC and Pastor Mike not honouring the gov't by not speaking to them. The CBC may have a mandate by the gov't to report the news, that doesn't mean that the public has to speak with them. The twists it takes to even try to make that stick are ridiculous. I understand that you may want to hear what he has to say, but that doesn't mean he has an obligation to speak with to the media because you want him to.
As for these whisper campaigns you accuse him of, we've also beaten that to death, its purely assumption on your part, with nothing to back it up.
again cd host, you keep pretending that you know so much about the man, but you've never met him. This is rediculous and going around in circles. My points have already been made and I don't have the patience to say them again.
Thank you CD host.
This has been my concern ALL along.
I ABSOLUTELY DEPLORE the fact that I have NEVER been given an opportunity to tell them exactly what happened.
I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT UNDERSTAND how you can preach to a group of people about Christian unity and yet not appear to practice what you preach.
I initially responded because something was posted on here about myself and I simply replied to this post to tell my side of the story.
That is how I ended up on this site in the first place.
IF someone from this church had NOT put this post on here, I would NEVER have been on this blog.
They posted this on the internet for all to see and I replied to an erroneous and a false statement.
IF someone calls themselves a Christian and is a Pastor, you WOULD THINK that they would have wanted to meet with me and resolve this LONG ago.
I DON'T BELIEVE that I am going to be given that opportunity at this church and thus the rumors, etc. will probably persist forever.
I was looking for closure on this but I am REPEATEDLY NOT being given that opportunity.
You talk about Christian unity on one hand and yet you fail to practice it on the other.
I think that we ALL need to walk the walk.
Yes, this entire thing was FUELED BY A WELL KNOWN GOSSIP whom I saw whisper something to Pastor Mike after she spoke with me.
I think that the leadership of Bethel is being VERY IMMATURE, TOTALLY UNFAIR to myself and may be attempting to hide or cover something up.
I absolutely CANNOT see a mature Christian leader behaving in such a fashion.
The story that Pastor Mike was told was NEVER checked out with myself, I never had a chance to rebuke, refute or challenge anything that he was told, that was said about myself, etc.
I have heard MANY other individuals say that things are run like a dictatorship over there and that the leadership has a lot of control over their congregation.
That's EXACTLY THE VERY SAME SCENARIO that some of us feel that we are up against at City Hall.
They are friends and they both belong to the SAME political party.
Perhaps these tactics have worked for BOTH of them in the past but I think that MANY OF US have simply OUTGROWN this type of leadership now.
People WANT to be respected, heard and NOT treated like children.
Most people want to feel as if they are full participants in a process and that their opinion is respected and valued.
This kind of behavior from ANY leader is simply NOT tolerable or acceptable ANY LONGER.
NOBODY wants to be told to do this and that and then dismissed WITHOUT total transparency, clarity and without an explanation.
This type of behavior is immature and is NOT acceptable ANY longer.
There is ONE other woman that I know of now, other than myself that was also asked to leave this church.
I heard that there is yet another woman but I have not met this woman yet.
I also heard that there are some serious "control" issues at this church with these Pentecostal men and their views of women and what they believe women's roles to be within the church and within society.
I just wanted to be given a chance to clear up the untruths, misconceptions and to tell them what REALLY HAPPENED.
I have NEVER been given that opportunity and that is what I have disputed and protested against ALL along.
CD host, there was NEVER an assault on my part, EVER.
This woman stole our puppy, with the FULL HELP AND ASSISTANCE of a woman who CALLS herself a Christian from Bethel.
I went to get back something that ALREADY BELONGED to us and to my daughter.
There was ABSOLUTELY NO THEFT THERE. This puppy ALREADY belonged to us.
I have NEVER been accused of something that I NEVER did before.
I have NEVER had false witness, false testimony made against myself.
I have NEVER been through ANYTHING like ANY of this before within my entire life.
These events are INCREDIBLY HORRIBLE within themselves.
I have NEVER experienced this type of behavior before from individuals who CLAIM to be Christians.
I had put up with this Gayle K. woman for three years, driven her all around Brandon for food and errands, etc. and then she does something like this to you and your daughter and well.........
This is the ULTIMATE BETRAYAL!
This is and has been an incredibly HORRIBLE, SURREAL event for ANY of us to have had to go through; ESPECIALLY MY BEAUTIFUL DAUGHTER who LOVED her Peaches SO MUCH because she was a gift from her father.
WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE DO THINGS LIKE THIS?
NO ONE THAT I HAVE EVER MET OR EVER KNOWN BEFORE.
These things are UNFATHOMABLE within themselves, let alone these OTHER incidents on top of this!
ALL of these events happened in SUCCESSION after I wrote a Letter to the Editor of our local paper and after I was asked by Bethel to find another church to worship in.
ALL HELL appeared to break loose after this for myself and EVERY STEP of the way someone from my former church was involved in EACH situation that involved myself.
DF --
The only reason the public would think that she was excommunicated is because deborah told them that. Pastor Mike has no obligation to publically announce she wasn't excommunicated, he didn't publically announce her to be excommunicated in the first place!
Actually he does have an obligation. Excommunication is a public function of a church. If the community widely believes he excommunicated her than "Godly churches" would not accept her until she is restored by Bethel. If she is not excommunicated then Davis, as her pastor of record, has/had an obligation to help her find a Godly church by engaging in public activities like letters of transfer. And given that she changed type of church that obligation lives on. He needs to have either issued her a letter of transfer confirming that she left over a personal disagreement with him that was not biblical and hence publicly denying the excommunication or a letter of excommunication indicating she left over a biblical disagreement.
Yes her status is a public matter and yes he is obligated to comment on it. The fact that Davis doesn't want to perform his pastoral duties is irrelevant to whether they remain his duties.
And by her own words when she spoke to the church she was told that they Couldn't/wouldn't say she can't come to the church. I would imagine that when one is excommunicated, they Would be telling her not to come back.
You would be wrong in general but right in this case. You are essentially reasoning like:
because all Campbell's soup cans are red cans
all red cans are Campbell's soup.
An excommunication is a revocation of membership a change in status required to bar someone from the church. Most of the excommunicated are not barred, in fact most churches would welcome a process of restoration. It is destructive cults that frequently use excommunication with no process of restoration, legitimate churches are generally interested in restoring the fallen; 2Cor 2:5-11.
There is no scenario where Davis comes out of this a good guy.
Actually, the church had already been through a 'restoration' period with her before the letter asking her to consider a new church. Deborah wrote a letter of apology that was aknowledge and celebrated. Sadly she started right back in on the same behavior she apologized for a week later.
As for him not fulfilling his pastoral duties, it is not his pastoral duty to speak to the media, nor is it his duty to follow deborah to each place she runs to with her story of excommunication.
Had he been the one going around telling other's she was kicked out or 'excommunicated' then i would actually agree with you. However not once has he spoken to anyone about this incident (Including the media, it was deborah who ran to them with the story). He has neither pubically or privately told people that she was kicked out.
I love that whole, your right but your wrong statement there. There aren't shades of grey in this situation, either she was kicked out/excommunicated or she wasn't. and again, being told to consider finding a new church, and that they wouldn't tell her not to come back, doesn't constitute an excommunication. She was Never told not to come back, and Never told her membership was revoked. {although she apparently, by her own words, didn't take out membership}
She has been the one to go around telling others she was kicked out, at no point does Pastor Mike have a responsibility to follow her around declaring her not to be.
In your opinion there isn't a situation that he comes out a good guy, but no worries, that is just your opinion. A great deal of others are fully in support of him, and still have the highest opinion of him.
DF --
This is yet another defense for Davis. So lets hammer this down so we don't have to go through this again. In this version:
1) Deborah does receive a reprimand from the pastor.
2) The reprimand is published by the secular press
3) Deborah apologizes publicly in a letter and the church accepts that publicly.
4) Deborah repeats her act regarding leadership
5) Deborah is kicked out of church using a yet unnamed process.
Do I have the order of events correct for this version?
DF --
Never told her membership was revoked. {although she apparently, by her own words, didn't take out membership}
I agree Deborah never considered herself a member but Davis did, as indicated by his letter. If Davis is incorrect about her membership status and she really wasn't a member then this is a complicating factor in terms of an appeal. But in general given that:
1) Davis indicates he considers her a member
2) Boschman has requested a formal appeal of excommunication
Both parties to the dispute consider her a member. The fact that say TT doesn't consider her a member is good reason for yet another charge that could be brought before the church secretary. If there was a finding that her status is ambiguous then that would be something for the session to resolve.
Again this is the sort of thing Davis is obligated to deal with in a judicious manner. It is entirely plausible that he was incorrect regarding her status, and that she wasn't a member. But given that he was mistaken and the church acted as if she was a member he needs to clarify those issues. And of course that removes the discipline entirely.
"Members of one church dismissed to join another shall be held to be under the jurisdiction of the Session dismissing them until they form a regular connection with that to which they have been dismissed."
What Davis cannot do is claim pastoral authority like the right to publicly address her sins before the session (which you agree now he did) while not granting her the protections associated with that authority.
"1) Deborah does receive a reprimand from the pastor.
2) The reprimand is published by the secular press
3) Deborah apologizes publicly in a letter and the church accepts that publicly.
4) Deborah repeats her act regarding leadership
5) Deborah is kicked out of church using a yet unnamed process. "
No, you don't have it in the right order, Deborah went through a restoration before the written reprimand and before anything was published in the paper. The restoration and previous problems were not the same problems as what we've been discussing. There were a whole other set of problems with her.
(As well, the letter was published by a secular press, because she provided copies to the press or by her 'friend' who went to the press. We can hardly lay that at the feet of Pastor Mike.)
Secondly, re-read the letter, where does it say she's kicked out? at what point does it tell her not to come back? He outlined in the letter the values that the church holds to and let her know that if she didn't like them that she should Consider finding a new church that holds more closely to her own values. He didn't tell her she couldn't come to the church, he didn't once tell her she wasn't welcome to attend there. (again, she even said that they told her that they wouldn't tell her not to come to the church)
Deborah is quite histrionic in her behaviors, even besides what's been witnessed in person, you can see it in her many posts, where deborah is, drama is soon to follow.
Pastor Mike read a letter she wrote to the church, he did not speak of what she had done, or added anything other than what she wrote. He infact did not release her name, he kept the letter anonymous. Only those who had been witnesses to some of the events she apologized for knew who the letter was from.
Whether she was a member or not is really not an issue, she was not excommunicated or kicked out. She provided the proof to that herself with the letter. The letter does not dismiss her from the church in the least bit.
CD host, D.F. has COMPLETELY LIED on this post.
1. I NEVER TOLD ONE SINGLE PERSON IN BRANDON THAT I WAS EXCOMMUNICATED. NOT ONE. People may have come to that conclusion themselves.
2. NEVER DID I GO TO THE PAPERS. That is another COMPLETE LIE. I NEVER TOOK THAT LETTER TO THE BRANDON SUN AND THE BRANDON SUN WILL CONFIRM SAME.
Melissa Rigden or Ridgen will confirm that.
She is the reporter who printed this story.
3. There was NEVER A RESTORATION PERIOD! WHAT IN THE NAME OF GOD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
This NEVER HAPPENED AT ALL.
This is yet ANOTHER LIE coming from this woman and/or perhaps this church.
4. There IS DEFINITELY STILL A WHISPER CAMPAIGN because I am hearing things ALL of the time.
5. I was asked by the Pastor of the church that I now attend to MAKE THINGS RIGHT with Pastor Mike BEFORE I WOULD BE ALLOWED TO ATTEND A BIBLE STUDY AT THIS NEW CHURCH.
This confirms what the CD host has stated and/or claimed.
I called Pastor Mike but he was BUSY.
6. I emailed Pastor Mike and Pastor Len and Pastor Mike NEVER REPLIED OR RESPONDED TO MYSELF EVEN ONCE for goodness sakes.
7. Other Pastors within this Brandon Ministerial Association appear to have heard a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORY than what actually happened with myself.
Where is this story coming from?
Pastor Mike himself?
8. I apologized to Pastor Mike for the letter making the Brandon Sun WHICH I INDICATED TO HIM THAT I HAD NO PART OF.
Did he HAPPEN to mention this FACT to his entire congregation?
I HIGHLY DOUBT IT.
9. I feel that Pastor Mike has been VERY NEGLIGENT in this situation.
He riled up his congregation the following Sunday after this letter was published by stating to them that, "The discipline of the church is DIFFERENT from the discipline of the world."
What had I done?
This ENTIRE FIASCO was started by TROUBLE MAKING, IDLE, GOSSIPING WOMEN who have CONTROLLED this church forever with their gossip and controlling spirits.
They are the ones on this post and are now trying to do damage control.
I want THEIR SINS brought to the light of day within this church and within this community.
I have NEVER MET MORE DESPICABLE, TROUBLED WOMEN THAT THESE THREE WOMEN, ever, and to find them in a church DISGUISED as Christians is EVEN MORE UPSETTING, UNSETTLING, you name it.
I believe that the leadership within Bethel is COVERING SOMETHING UP or else they would have met with me A LONG TIME AGO already.
They are the largest church within Brandon and I am ONE INDIVIDUAL, a single parent to boot, and this is how you treat someone who REALLY CARES about their community?
These women keep PERPETUATING THEIR LIES, STORIES, MISCONCEPTIONS because WHEN THE TRUTH IS FINALLY BROUGHT TO THE LIGHT, their LIES and their TOTAL INVOLVEMENT in this situation will be made known.
These women DON'T WANT TO SEE THIS HAPPEN because they are INVOLVED IN THIS EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.
They are idle gossips within this church and have caused MANY GRIEVOUS situations within this church already.
Are they being EGGED ON by this Pastor?
Well, perhaps we should find out.
What a TOTAL LIE to say that there was a Restorative Process involving myself. WHEN? WHERE?
WHERE are you getting this LIE from?
Again, HOW are these individuals being informed of matters involving myself?
WHERE is this information coming from?
WHERE, pray tell, are you getting this TOTALLY ERRONEOUS information from yet again?
They should have met with me PERSONALLY to express ANY CONCERNS that they had regarding my Letter to the Editor.
WHAT A BUNCH OF COWARDS!
Instead you send me a letter and then you HIDE BEHIND the skirt tales of WELL-KNOWN AND DOCUMENTED GOSSIPS within a church?
STOP HIDING BEHIND THE SKIRTS!
REAL MEN DON'T DO THIS.
STAND UP NOW AND BE REAL MEN.
WHY is there this repeated hesitation?
Is this like the DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL policy of another Conservative govt. in the U.S.?
BE REAL MEN OVER THERE and ADMIT YOUR MISTAKES.
I can sure admit mine.
Is this attitude ALL part of the Pentecostal male mentality as well?
The man is OVER the woman. He has authority over her.
Perhaps their attitude is that no explanation is necessary.
I feel that it is and this sends a PRETTY CLEAR MESSAGE to the rest of the congregation about your fate IF you dare speak up about the leadership in your city that is SUPPOSE TO BE REPRESENTING YOU in the FIRST place.
This is just called keeping your leadership ACCOUNTABLE to the people because you CARE and because you want to see THE BEST RESULTS POSSIBLE FOR THE PEOPLE.
How can THAT INTENTION be worthy of ALL of this behavior?
I would also like to know what D.F. is referring to when she says that I apologized to Pastor Mike and then a week later I am back at it again.
What did I do? Write another Letter to the Editor?
Is THAT what you are referring to?
What did I get "back to again?" Please CLARIFY this statement.
CD host, there appears to be SOMEWHAT OF AN AWAKENING happening in Brandon at the moment!
BRAVO!
Citizens ALL OVER Brandon are now rising up and speaking their mind for a change!
The Brandon City Police have now come forward to say that THEY ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THEIR NEW PROPOSED POLICE STATION!
Bravo!
FREEDOM OF SPEECH FINALLY to the people!
The citizens of Brandon have been SUPPRESSED FOR FAR TOO LONG within this city.
It's about time that they got RESULTS OR BANG FOR THEIR BUCK!
BRAVO CITIZENS OF BRANDON!
We ARE going to GET WHAT WE TOLERATE ALL OVER THE PLACE within this city.
IF we WANT MORE, then WE HAVE TO TAKE A STAND AND DECLARE THIS and then hold our leaders accountable to us to OBTAIN THESE DESIRED RESULTS!
That is the way I see things anyway.
TRT, I wanted to hold church services the last election and I was told by a member of Bethel that they COULD NOT HELP ME because the leadership DID NOT APPROVE of this.
So IF the leadership of this church is REALLY after GOD'S WILL over Brandon then what harm would they have in praying FOR PEOPLE and asking God to HEAL people and RESTORE their health, etc. to them?
HOW and WHY would a church NOT want to be involved in something that is what we are SUPPOSE to be doing as REAL CHRISTIANS on this earth or planet?
Please explain that to me.
I am now also looking again for a church to hold services in.
NONE of this is about me. It's about BEING THE CHURCH to the citizens of Brandon and Westman.
I see this as being the REAL HANDS AND FEET OF JESUS ON THIS EARTH AS IT IS HIS WILL IN HEAVEN.
To me, it's about bringing the KINGDOM OF GOD TO THE EARTH.
It's about GIVING HIM THE HONOR AND THE GLORY AND PRAISE that HE DESERVES.
NONE of this SHOULD BE about any man or individual.
The Bible is VERY CLEAR that God shares his glory with NO ONE!
It's ALL ABOUT HIM!
I want to see ANY MONEY TAKEN FROM A COLLECTION, other than paying rent on the building, go DIRECTLY into an account that will then be used DIRECTLY to help our disenfranchised children, those who cannot find Affordable Housing, etc. within Brandon.
I think that these ACTIONS would bring REAL GLORY to our God and FINALLY others could see the Christian WALK as it is SUPPOSE TO BE.
I want to see MANY GOOD THINGS, GIFTS AND BLESSINGS for ALL of the citizens of Brandon.
I want to see GOD MOVE IN AND INVADE THIS PLACE WITH GOOD WORKS, REAL CHRISTIAN ACTS, etc.
We can play church in a building every Sunday or else we can step OUTSIDE the building, stand up and BE THE REAL CHURCH within this community.
I want to be part of a movement that IS THE REAL CHURCH within Brandon.
This other stuff is just DISTRACTIONS that come from the devil and the pit of hell to trip us up and PREVENT God from accomplishing what he WANTS TO DO FOR US, THROUGH US AND IN US in this region.
That is why I will probably NOT involve the PAOC in this matter.
I also want to say that I HOLD NO GRUDGE against those boy's clubs who are successful within Brandon, who own MOST of the land, etc.
I am VERY HAPPY for their success, business smarts, etc.
Perhaps we could pray for them to JUMP ON BOARD and perhaps do MORE things that will benefit the majority rather than JUST REPEATEDLY AND CONTINUALLY HELPING THEMSELVES, YEAR AFTER YEAR, DECADE AFTER DECADE, GENERATION AFTER GENERATION.
The Bible says that, "With God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE!"
Let us BELIEVE THIS AND APPLY THIS over Brandon and Westman!
I just TRULY want to see EVERYONE IN THIS REGION BLESSED AND PROSPER!
That is my heart for Brandon and Westman and God KNOWS the TRUE INTENTIONS of my heart.
I believe that God's heart is also for the majority electorate.
I believe that He WANTS to see us ALL BLESSED BY HIM.
THAT is what I am after for this region.
I want to see GOD KNOCK ALL OF OUR SOCKS OFF WITH FAVOR, OPPORTUNITIES, BLESSINGS, PROSPERITY, etc.
IF God could use ANY OF US to heal people within this region, well, that would just be the ICING on the proverbial cake.
My heart and my intentions are for GOOD and NOT evil.
Being able to express myself and MY INCREDIBLE FRUSTRATIONS on this blog have been VERY HELPFUL to me.
A friend of mine from the U.S. wrote this:
"A. W. Tozer tells us, 'It is doubtful whether God can bless a man greatly UNTIL He has hurt him DEEPLY.'
Then he said that he believes that God actually rises up storms of conflict in relationships at times in order to accomplish that DEEPER WORK IN OUR CHARACTER. (Ugh!)
We cannot love our enemies in our own strength. This is graduate-level grace."
He said that this was in Chapter 5 of Tozer's book, "I Call It Heresy".
He indicated that he received this from one of his erulite friends.
I'm actually going to have to look up the definition of this word.
I REALLY have never heard this word used before.
Someone else wrote, "Until we have aligned ourselves properly with God, NOTHING in life will fall into place as it SHOULD, and we will never know what it means to be made WHOLE.
You cannot WORK your way to Heaven but you CAN definitely work your way into hell.
This person then quoted Galatians 5:19-21:
"Now the works of the FLESH are manifest, which are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciveousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past that they which do such things SHALL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God."
I went to NetBible.com and I found these passages from the Bible concerning GOSSIP:
Proverbs 16:28: "A perverse person spreads dissension and a gossip separates the closest friends."
1 Titus 5:13: "And besides that, going around from house to house they LEARN TO BE LAZY, and they are NOT ONLY LAZY, but also gossips and busybodies, telling about things they should NOT."
Romans 1:29: "They are filled with EVERY KIND OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, wickedness, covetousness, malice. They are RIFE with envy, murder, strife, deceit, hostility. They are gossips."
Proverbs 11:13: "The one who goes about slandering others reveals secrets, but the one who is TRUSTWORTHY CONCEALS a matter."
Proverbs 26:20: Where there is no wood, a fire goes out, and where there is NO GOSSIP, contention ceases."
Psalms 69:12: "Those who sit at the CITY GATE GOSSIP about me...."
Proverbs 26:22: "The words of a gossip are like DELICIOUS MORSELS; they go down into a person's innermost being."
Proverbs 20:19: "The one who goes about gossiping reveals secrets; therefore DO NOT ASSOCIATE with someone who is ALWAYS OPENING THEIR MOUTH."
These traits DEFINITELY exhibit a LACK OF CHARACTER, INTEGRITY, you name it to myself.
Please tell me WHY Bethel would NOT WANT to deal with women such as this and WHY Bethel would not want to PREVENT and STOP THIS BEHAVIOR from continuing?
Is there a PAYOFF here for Bethel and for this Pastor?
WHICH IS WORSE? My writing a Letter to the Editor or this continued, repeated slander, lies and GOSSIP from these individuals within Bethel?
TT and DF --
""The discipline of the church is DIFFERENT from the discipline of the world."
Do you agree this happened? If so Davis himself indicates he sees this as church discipline....
BRAVO BRANDON CITY POLICE!
This is what I believe CHANGE LOOKS LIKE and this is what I believe it looks like WHEN INDIVIDUALS GET TOGETHER COLLECTIVELY AND TAKE THEIR CITY BACK!
BRAVO FOR ALL BRANDONITES!
BRAVO for ALL of the citizens of Brandon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BRAVO!
I believe that Mayor Dave is NOT going to be able to CONTROL ALL of the events that are about to UNFOLD in the days ahead.
I don't think that Bethel will be able to CONTROL them either.
I believe this could be a GOD THING!
This could be Brandon's long awaited MOVE OF GOD within this region.
This election MAY prove to be MORE EXCITING than those previously and perhaps THIS TIME we will get the REAL CHANGE that MANY of us have been SO DESPERATELY only DREAMING ABOUT, LIKE FOREVER!
This REAL CHANGE could actually benefit the MAJORITY of the people within Brandon and that would be a REAL REFRESHING AND MUCH NEEDED SWITCH for a change, in my humble opinion!
MORE POWER TO THE PEOPLE!
MORE POWER TO THE AVERAGE CITIZENS OF BRANDON!
BRAVO!
Discipline does not equate excommunication/being kicked out. I agree she was spoken to, (in the form of the letter) by leadership about a sin committed. I hesitate to even call it disciplined, in what way was she disciplined? she was not removed from the congregation, she was not revoked a priviledge, there were no consequences faced, she received the letter.
Deborah, whether you or your friend or whoever took this letter in, it was given by you to one of them. (and i do believe i mentioned that it was either you or a friend who took it in. Maybe read the entire post before jumping on accusations) This letter brought to the media from your end, regardless of the connections it took to get there. {they certainly didn't get the letter from Pastor Mike} And you've been on here saying you were kicked out (and i believe a few times you've used the term excommunicated after other's brought it up) You've been the one going around claiming to have been kicked out.
I know for a fact that there was a letter of apology (and i've used the term 'restoration' period lightly, {hense the quotations around it, in both the previous post and now} they did accept your letter of apology and did read it and celebrated that you had repented. But like i mentioned, you went right back into the behavior you apologized for, really rendering the whole thing moot)
As for the Pastor not responding to your emails, {that you sent upon request of your current pastor} I've got a question about that one. You've mentioned {On here} quite often that you sent him numerous emails about all sorts of 'issues' you've had in the church. {admin's house, your dog, etc...} after which he finally told you he would not be responding nor reading your emails anymore. (again, you've told us that on here). If you were serious about making things right, or dealing with this, why are you taking a route you know won't work. You're aware he won't read your emails, so why send them? There are many other avenues of communication, yet you're taking the One way that you know won't get you a response. Why is that? Does it work better for you to play up the victim role this way?
""The discipline of the church is DIFFERENT from the discipline of the world."
Do i agree this happened? is this in the letter or are you quoting deborah? ( i can't recall if its in the letter, i would have to search out the post its in and re-read it) Like i said, I'm not from Brandon, so I don't attend there, (but like mentioned do visit it frequently). I wasn't there for the sunday after the letter in the newspaper appeared, so I don't know if he said it or not. Perhaps tt can confirm if it happened or not.
Deborah, were you there that sunday, or are you going on second hand knowledge with that one? (Did someone else claim he said that?)
CD host, these women SHOULD agree this happened because I'm sure that they were IN attendance at this service when these words were spoken and declared to the ENTIRE congregation.
It is on tape or could have been removed by now but other individuals were in the congregation and told me directly about what was said also.
Several of them then called someone VERY CLOSE to myself to APOLOGIZE to her on behalf of and for the actions of this church.
This church is reflective to me of this larger community.
BOTH appear to be controlled, suppressed, oppressed and hushed by their leadership.
My prayer is that God will BLOW THE LID OFF OF both of these scenarios and ALLOW the people the FREEDOM that they ALL deserve and that has been DENIED them thus far.
I just found out that the man who is EXTREMELY SELFISH AND STUBBORN and who smokes REPEATEDLY in the house HAD to take one of his children to the Doctor YET AGAIN.
The other child is at home SICK and coughing because of ALL of the cigarette smoke.
This man is of course in TOTAL DENIAL about how his EXTREMELY SELFISH ACTIONS are contributing to the sickness of his children.
The Doctors in this city should REFUSE to treat the children of anyone who SMOKES in their home in front of them.
Would this be a deterrent? Perhaps this would NOT be ethical but I am EXTREMELY FRUSTRATED because I CARE VERY MUCH about this woman and her children.
They ALL deserve SO MUCH BETTER TREATMENT than this!
This is AGONIZING for me!
I will be standing up for them and speaking about and/or trying to address this issue also.
With what we NOW KNOW about second hand smoke, this behavior is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE, INTOLERABLE and SHOULD BE PUNISHABLE BY LAW as far as I'm concerned.
Sometimes I feel that we care MORE about animals nowadays, than we do about PEOPLE!
How does one unsubscibe from a thread like this. The numbe rof postings is becoming to many for my email inbox to handel. Does anyone know how to unsubsribe from these things so that pone no longer recieves notices in their email?
Bill Baker
I'm impressed deborah, that you listed all those scriptures about gossip, and now have jumped on here gossiping about some smoker? Why is this relevent to the discussion? why would any of us need to know this information about him?
If you're going to go on about other's and their gossiping, perhaps check yourself first, you know the whole remove the plank from your eye before trying to remove their speck...
Bill, you see right under your name below the comment section (where it says choose an identity) and it says "follow-up comments will be sent to ________" right beside it is an unsubscribe link.
Pastor Mike stated these words to his congregation DIRECTLY at church the Sunday after his letter to me made it onto the FRONT PAGE of The Brandon Sun. (Ugh!)
Several FIRST HAND witnesses shared this information with me.
They were IN THE CONGREGATION to hear these words spoken by this Pastor for themselves.
I was already QUITE TICKED OFF with this church because they had NOT TAKEN STEPS to help me make this unscrupulous Administrator's husband accountable for his actions on the private sale of his home to me WHILE HE WAS STILL ATTENDING THIS CHURCH AND WHILE HIS WIFE WAS STILL THE ADMINISTRATOR.
They appeared to take his side of the story and DISMISS my REPEATED REQUESTS for assistance in making this man ACCOUNTABLE for his actions WHILE HE WAS STILL AT THIS CHURCH AND WHILE HIS WIFE WAS STILL EMPLOYED THERE.
I had to TOLERATE this situation within this church as well as other scenarios and then they responded to me in this fashion after I wrote a Letter to the Editor AND HAD ALREADY APOLOGIZED TO THE MAYOR FOR ANYTHING THAT MIGHT HAVE OFFENDED HIM IN THIS LETTER.
I was VERY, VERY UPSET to say the least after I received this letter from Bethel and I wanted NOTHING FURTHER TO DO WITH ANYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH THIS CHURCH.
D.F. appears to have FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of SO MANY EVENTS regarding myself and yet she INSISTS that she lives in Saskatchewan.
My D.F., you seem SO CONNECTED even though you CLAIM to live so far away. (A whole province, in fact, away.)
I don't believe this FOR A MOMENT.
Gee, you appear to know MORE THINGS about the private details of my life; the emails to Pastor Mike, etc. than I EVEN KNOW or have ever been made aware of.
How are YOU so PRIVY to this supposedly PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL information?
Is Bethel ALL ABOUT making the leadership LOOK GOOD or is the MAIN FOCUS within this church about THE PEOPLE and God working through ALL of them?
The parallels to our own city leadership are EERILY and SCARILY QUITE SIMILAR to me.
I noticed that a woman from Bethel wrote a BRILLIANT Letter to the Editor recently regarding water.
Will she now get into trouble for writing this letter?
I had NO IDEA that this woman was AS INTELLIGENT as she proved herself to be via this letter.
It was an AMAZING letter!
I remember the letter being read (not sure if the entire letter was read or if he just read part of it I didn't see the letter) Other than the apology I don't remember what was preached on that day, it was around 4 years ago wasn't it? My memory isn't that good lol. I could tell you if he did or didn't preach on discipline I don't recall the sermon from that far back.
Deborah you may not have directly handed the letter to the brandon sun reporter, but you were more than happy to pose for a picture for the story. Which doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that you were not embarassed or remorseful that it got out. People who don't want things like that out, don't pose with it for the paper. Other than that I really don't know how to respond to your rants lol, I've asked time and time again where exactly I lied? and you've yet to be able to even shed a little light on that statement. As for opening a church, deborah any church in their right mind is not going to rent a church to some one who's sole purpose is to preach their own agenda and call it ministry. Bravo to the churches who turned that down. really it surprises you that they said no?
D.F., now I am told that I am SUPPOSE to KNOW what I should do.
Well, what exactly might that be?
RESPECT IS EARNED, I'M AFRAID AND IT DOES GO BOTH WAYS in my books, in my estimation and in my opinion.
Sending someone a letter through the mail and yet PRETENDING that nothing is wrong, upsetting or troubling the day before are just simply NOT ACCEPTABLE WAYS to treat someone and/or to deal with people, in my estimation.
Also, taking a WELL KNOWN GOSSIP's word for ANYTHING is also NOT an ACCEPTABLE practice.
This ENTIRE PROCESS has NEVER been fair to myself at all and DID NOT ALLOW me THE OPPORTUNITY to explain the truth in regards to this particular situation.
This is what I have ALWAYS OBJECTED about.
I DID NOT START this conversation, remember, on the Internet.
Where did this initial untruth on this blog come from in the first place?
Since when do you post things about a fellow Christian ON THE INTERNET?
This is UNHEARD OF in my opinion.
Perhaps the ONLY WAY that you MIGHT understand where I am coming from is IF the EXACT SAME SITUATION happened to yourself.
Then see HOW INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATED and ANGRY you would feel.
WHY is this church CHOOSING to listen to gossip in the FIRST place and ESPECIALLY from WELL KNOWN AND DOCUMENTED GOSSIPS?
Perhaps this is my payback for the situation with the former Administrator's husband.
You TRY to get to the truth and make individuals ACCOUNTABLE for their actions and this is DISAPPROVED.
Why?
Is it because our churches are HARDLY any different from the systems of the world now?
The fact that the TRUTH, HONESTY, etc. DO NOT appear to be PURSUED within this church is VERY TROUBLING to myself, also.
I think that it is WAY MORE IMPORTANT TO EMPOWER AND EQUIP the MASSES than it is to EMPOWER AND EQUIP THEIR LEADER; whether this be in a church OR at City Hall.
In my opinion, only VERY INSECURE LEADERS do this, who might also have CONTROL issues.
If the shoe fits, I am prepared to wear it. How about yourself?
Mr. Bill Baker, can I ask you before you go, WHY you NO LONGER attend Bethel?
Why have you chosen to abandon the faith?
You DON'T have to answer these questions of course but I am just curious.
I would like to see our young people become VERY SUCCESSFUL in Brandon and in this Westman region.
I'd like to see them be ENCOURAGED to develop their entrepreneurial skills, their creative, marketing and business skills.
I found a group of teens online who had made $1 million dollars BEFORE they even graduated.
This accomplishment is also celebrated in Forbes Magazine.
Let's FIND A NEED FOR SOMETHING, ANYTHING, then let's SERIOUSLY explore this, patent it, develop it and then get it out there for sale.
I have an idea myself that I would like to see developed.
I'd like to see the Brandon City Police develop something that is required perhaps, something innovative that they NEED that HASN'T BEEN INVENTED, PATENTED OR DEVELOPED yet.
Perhaps one of our REALLY INTELLIGENT STUDENTS could invent or develop something.
We could get a group of students from BU, ACC, the Brandon School Division, the general public, our surrounding communities, The Brandon Chamber of Commerce, and the Brandon City Police together.
The BCP could tell us what has NOT been invented yet that could or would be VERY USEFUL or helpful to them on their job, for instance.
Perhaps one of our intelligent, creative kids or a group of students or an adult could come up with something; an idea.
We could get this going and run with it. The revenues from THIS could pay for the new Police Station that these policemen want to see built here within Brandon.
I think that it is TIME to think OUTSIDE of the box within this city!
Let us be creative, innovative, adaptable, flexible, you name it.
IF we work together, we can come up with and accomplish some AMAZING things for and within this City.
I'd also like to see a Forks-like atmosphere and destination point in downtown Brandon.
There is SO MUCH that we could accomplish, achieve and do IF we work together and IF we are on the SAME page within this city.
I think that the possibilities are VERY EXCITING, realistic, futuristic, endless and hopeful.
I want to see us become a vibrant, dynamic, pulsating, exciting community.
I want EVERYONE to feel excited about living and working in Brandon and I want EVERYONE to see Brandon as a city of HUGE POTENTIAL and POSSIBILITIES!
Let's WORK TOGETHER, tap into and harness ALL of that creativity, energy and potential!
I want to see RESULTS and I want to see IMMEDIATE ACTION and/or improvements, development.
The time for talk is over now.
D.F. I NEVER apologized for writing that Letter to the Editor. I apologized for the fact that we were ALL made to feel embarrassment when this letter made it's way to the newspaper.
I make NO APOLOGIES for my letter in that I have EVERY RIGHT to stick up and stand up for the people.
I apologized initially to Mayor Dave if my letter had offended him and I offered him my explanation, which he accepted.
NOPE, I don't nor will I ever apologize for trying to help make a city better or for trying to IMPROVE things within it.
NOPE, SORRY, that's NOT going to happen.
I see this as a form of CONTROL within this church; perhaps a form of legalism.
Perhaps this Pastor AND this Mayor can run off together IF there is such a LOVE FEST between the two of them but please leave the PEOPLE that are looking up to them both for leadership and guidance out of ALL of their collective politics.
I see this as an ABUSE of your leadership position that you are DIRECTLY attempting to and successfully INFLUENCING a congregation.
I believe that we ALL deserve MUCH BETTER than this.
Deborah, you seem to think that people listened to this "gossip" about you and thats why there were so many problems. Pastor Davis has been in the ministry for years, and is hardly susceptible to following and believing that gossip. He has the common sense to be able to discern between people trying to slander and gossip to those telling the truth. So chances are that yes those ladies you talked about probably did gossip about you, but its unlikely that they are the cause of your troubles. As for your whole statement of it being unacceptable to you for Christians to be talking about other Christians online in a negative manner. THATS WHAT YOU'RE DOING!!!! You've been doing that all along. You don't seem to have this ability to admit when you're wrong (although you claim to, we just have yet to see it) so rather you get angry at anyone who points out where you're wrong and go on the attack. Again I'll ask cause you keep reffering to it as lying. What did I lie about? Let me know what have I said that I lied about?
"How are YOU so PRIVY to this supposedly PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL information"
I know you sent a number of emails, because you stated On this site that you sent him numerous emails. (I put that in my first post, how'd you miss that?) You're the one who told us about the emails. ON HERE. Its not all that private or confidential when you're blurting it out on the web for all to see.
As for whether you believe me when i say i don't live in brandon, it really doesn't matter. You can believe what you want.
tt, OH REALLY! Well then, why do I receive a letter from Bethel RIGHT AFTER a well-known gossip whispers something in the ear of Pastor Mike?
That's QUITE PROFESSIONAL isn't it?
I was trying to make this Administrator's husband ACCOUNTABLE for his actions towards me on the sale of his home to me.
Here we go again. This couple were "friends" with this Pastor.
This couple also coincidentally apparently gave VERY GOOD TITHES to this church.
So, in effect, this Pastor is REFUSING to give me ANY HELP OR ASSISTANCE because in his mind his "friends" couldn't possibly do this?
He chose to believe them over myself when I had the proof ALL ALONG; while the wife was STILL employed as the Administrator of this church.
He just told me to FORGIVE THEM but he offered me NO HELP OR ASSISTANCE in making these individuals ACCOUNTABLE for their actions.
MANY other individuals within Brandon who also had dealings with this man can testify to his wrongdoings and they are the VERY SAME EXPERIENCE as my own.
I NEVER made a Nursery worker cry, EVER. She cried because she must have felt guilty and/or responsible for her actions.
There was NEVER a theft OR an ASSAULT on my part, EVER.
That was my daughter's puppy that was a gift from her father.
My mistake was in asking my neighbor and her offering to help us train Peaches for us.
This was a COLOSSAL mistake!
Pastor Mike was only recently preaching about the WITCHES IN THE CHURCH so he MUST REALIZE NOW what these women are CAPABLE of doing.
I NEVER made a BIG FUSS when I was asked by Pastor Mike to not bring the Wheat King horn any longer.
Where did that LIE come from?
There is NOTHING mentally wrong with myself.
I do now believe, however, that there is something FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG within Bethel.
Perhaps it is a God thing that God got me out of there.
You have spoken MANY untruths on here and I DON'T CARE to go back and revisit/review them all.
GOD KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED and he knows my heart, my character, my intentions, and who I really am.
What you have portrayed on here is NOT who I am, what I did OR what happened.
You are parlaying a character assassination in order to defend your own actions and those of your Pastor.
So be it. Stick your head back in the sand and go on your merry way.
I prefer to live in reality, the here and now and I prefer to live in the TRUTH.
What you have described and perpetuated is NOT the truth and you know it.
There must be a payoff for some of you and this Pastor to keep believing and perpetuating this.
God WILL REVEAL it all for EVERYONE to see.
I'm NOT WORRIED at all!
It will ALL be as I have claimed and stated ALL ALONG and you know it.
Leave me alone now. Go and look at yourselves in the mirror and go back to tormenting each other again.
You three are ALL individually running with things to this Pastor and to MANY others about EACH other.
They prefer to NOT PUT A STOP TO THIS BEHAVIOR at Bethel for whatever reason.
I'm VERY HAPPY to be AWAY from this and your nonsense.
NONE of this goes on in ANY of the other churches that I have attended since leaving Bethel.
YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, NOT MYSELF.
Also tt, I am on here DEFENDING MYSELF against these REPEATED lies, slanders and attacks from you and D.F.
Don't put these out here on the internet in the FIRST place and then there will be NO REBUTTAL whatsoever from my end.
Someone from your church STARTED THIS entire thing. I DID NOT or would you rather dispute this fact also?
You DON'T even have the GUTS to IDENTIFY yourself.
Bring this Nursery Worker forward.
I'd like to hear this accusation from her own lips, to myself, in person.
I DON'T BELIEVE for a minute that there would even be one.
Your co-workers identify you as a TROUBLE-MAKING, TROUBLESOME GOSSIP.
I looked DIRECTLY AT YOU and I called you a WITCH, which is what I BELIEVE YOU TO BE.
Now you are telling people at Bethel that I called you a bitch.
You LIAR!
Perhaps YOU are identifying yourself for who YOU REALLY ARE.
YOU TROUBLE MAKING, TROUBLE SOME LIAR!
You have hurt MANY INDIVIDUALS within Bethel and elsewhere.
You should be REBUKED for your REPEATED actions, lies about and towards others.
WHAT DID YOU TELL Pastor Mike, witch?
What LIE did you tell him?
No, perhaps the PAOC SHOULD INVESTIGATE and get TO THE BOTTOM OF EACH AND EVERY IDLE COMMENT, REMARK, LIE, etc.
Leave me TOTALLY ALONE. I've had WAY ENOUGH of the BOTH of you.
NOBODY ELSE or ANY OTHER CHURCH would PUT UP WITH THIS REPEATED NONSENSE HAPPENING within their church and/or congregation.
WHY this is being ALLOWED at Bethel just about blows my mind but God will have to INTERVENE and do what needs to be done over there.
I had NO IDEA that there were SO MANY TROUBLES over there with a FEW individuals.
NO IDEA.
I have a right to write whatever manner of Letter to the Editor that I so desire.
NO CHURCH SHOULD HAVE ANY RIGHT TO ASK ANY PARISHONER to find another church to worship in because they exercised their BASIC HUMAN RIGHT of FREEDOM OF SPEECH as stipulated in the Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms.
I was NEVER ADDRESSED about honoring the leadership when I blatantly criticized the Federal Liberals who were in power at the time.
My troubles began after I legitimately criticized this Conservative leadership over Brandon.
I must have written TRUER WORDS than I even realized for this letter to cause ALL OF THIS FALLOUT afterwards.
Stay OUT of my life now.
You have NO CONTROL over me now.
Go enjoy your life in the sand and/or in your bubble.
I am going to keep fighting for the BEST INTERESTS of the people UNTIL we get NEW LEADERSHIP in Brandon that is going to FULLY represent them and ALL OF US in a MORE TRANSPARENT, honest, engaging and open fashion.
MANY of us have HAD IT with a leadership that appears to be asleep, cut off, out of touch with their electorate.
We DON'T WANT partisan politics and the OLD WAYS of doing things ANY LONGER.
We want some NEW, MORE INCLUSIVE, INVITING ways to ENGAGE and INVOLVE this electorate EVERY STEP of the way in TAKING OFF as a city.
IF caring about this community and the best interests of the people living within it constitutes being a sin, well, then yes, I am guilty of committing a sin.
I was just listening to a man by the name of Bishop Eddie L. Long speak from Atlanta, Georgia.
He has a church of 30,000 members and his income is 3.1 million dollars per annum or something like that.
He also owns MANY GYMS, businesses, etc. there. He also runs 1/2 of the Social Service programs within Atlanta, Georgia.
I guess that he goes LOOKING FOR AND RECRUITING THE ADHD children because he said that these children are the MOST CREATIVE LEADERS within his church.
Over here we'd probably just judge them but this man is actually PURSUING THEM AND LOOKING FOR THEM.
He said that as Christians, WE ARE SUPPOSE TO EFFECT THE CULTURE that we live in, FOR GOOD.
He said that God EXPECTS MEASURABLE PROGRESS IN A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME.
He then went on to talk about money and how EVERYTHING that God puts in our hand, He EXPECTS an INCREASE from or else he will TAKE IT AWAY from us.
He then referred to the Parable of the Talents as a reference for this concept.
He said that God is about MULTIPLICATION, NOT about staying the same.
He also said that God wants to build up a RIGHTEOUS ARMY.
It was a VERY INTERESTING message.
He can be reached at askthe bishop@newbirth.org or 1-800-985-3787.
While first thing first, I work for myself so you couldn't possibly have talked to my co-workers, I don't have any lol. Secondly, you didn't call me a witch you didn't even talk to me, I"m not this julie person you keep talking about lol. So now that we've got that out of the way. I would take it to mean that you actually have nothing to go on when you're accusing me of lying? I haven't lied about a single situation on here. Lets take the nursery incident, Deborah you have 6 different versions of the same even (well that was the last time I counted there could be more now). How is it possible that the truth has six different sides to it? I said exactly what I personally saw, what I was present for. Not making up what happened. As for the puppy, who argued with you on that? none of us here really care about the puppy nor have been discussing it with you? As for your house, you presented an unreasonable request to Pastor Mike if you asked him to remedy the situation. First off its safe to assume we're not hearing the full story from you as thats your style only telling half truths. Second of all, nothing illegal was done, buying a house thats old is going to require work, everyone but you knows that. You should have gotten an inspection, thats not on their shoulders its on yours. I don't know what on earth you wanted him to do? Try and make them pay for the repairs to your house? Seriously I don't know how this makes sense to you cause its just not making sense to anyone else.
The former Administrator's husband LIED to me and did NOT tell me the truth about MANY things.
He COVERED MANY THINGS up.
He was NOT HONEST.
He was DECEPTIVE, MANIPULATIVE, always complaining about his previous heart attack, etc.
If I was to say his name, MANY INDIVIDUALS within Brandon would groan, and say, "Oh that guy. He DOES NOT have a GOOD REPUTATION," as one of my neighbors told me DIRECTLY.
Many Christians would tell you the SAME THING.
I even had a lawyer in Brandon tell me this same thing.
MANY individuals within Brandon were HURT by this man also.
I was NOT firm enough with this man. I was a woose and he took TOTAL ADVANTAGE of the situation as he has done with SO MANY others within Brandon and OTHER communities, from what I was told by SEVERAL individuals.
I was told that he had this SAME PROBLEM with almost everyone that he EVER dealt with.
The individual who told me this is another neighbor of mine who KNEW the children in this family and was friends with them.
He said that this same scenario is what he remembers happening even back then.
The pattern here is the SAME.
Even IF the proof was shown to your face, I have a feeling that you would STILL find some way to DENY this.
Go and stick your head back in the sand if you wish.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
That is ALWAYS a GOOD MOTTO to try to live by.
This is what I have ALWAYS tried to do.
TT --
There is a moderated comment from Deborah indicating that she doesn't want to discuss this further with you until you identify yourself. I rejected due to personal insults.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
really thats your motto and then you get a post rejected because of personal insults? I"m having a hard time following your line of thinking, cause you do opposite to how you say you act etc.. Quite honestly I don't care if you don't discuss anything with me lol, you have nothing to go on anyway as I didn't speak any lies and I'm quite comfortable with what I've said. You have a bad habit of taking people to court and wasting tax payer money, so I'll just stick with tt!
You'll stick with tt, eh? Well, you just posted as tt.
So, which is it?
WELL, I THINK THAT YOU JUST GOT YOURSELF CAUGHT! (or punked as they say.)
CD host, I just found out tonight from a woman that attended Bethel that Pastor Mike HIMSELF SPOKE TO HER DIRECTLY ABOUT MYSELF.
She just told me this to my face tonight.
She said that he DID NOT use my name but he told her about the letter in the Brandon Sun, about taking him to court, etc.
THIS IS COMING RIGHT FROM THE HORSES' MOUTH now.
So, CD host, you were saying that there WAS A WHISPER CAMPAIGN and it appears that you were RIGHT ON THE MONEY indeed.
Did Pastor Mike SET THE GOSSIPS up?
Only God knows.
This would LEGITIMIZE to me why some members of this congregation felt so EMPOWERED to do what they did.
IF they were ENCOURAGED by their Pastor, if they were coaxed, if they were CONGRATULATED behind the scenes, well, this ALL makes perfect sense to me.
Were they setup by Pastor Mike to do what they did?
This THEN IS AN ABSOLUTE AND TOTAL ABUSE OF POWER AND AUTHORITY RIGHT FROM THE VERY TOP!
This Pastor appears to be saying ONE THING to his congregation and yet doing ANOTHER THING behind the scenes.
THIS would explain his complete refusal or DESIRE for an INVESTIGATION IF he is involved EVERY STEP of the way!
This woman told me that God told her specifically, "DO NOT SET YOUR FOOT IN BETHEL."
This woman told me she heard these words from the Lord Himself in her spirit.
So, this also confirms to me why I stated earlier that there is something FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG at Bethel.
It turns out, there is.
CD host, this woman told me NOT to judge this Pastor, these Pastors, this Board, etc. BUT TO PRAY FOR THEM.
She told me that GOD WILL DEAL WITH THEM.
This is ALL really quite UNBELIEVABLE to me, really.
We were ALL friends at one time.
We are SUPPOSE to be brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Is this HOW FAR OFF TRACK the church has gotten?
This is REALLY, REALLY SAD to me but I also feel an INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF ANGER that SO MANY INDIVIDUALS would and could come against ONE PERSON and feel justified and condoned doing this.
But, if you are being SUPPORTED and this is CONDONED and perhaps even ENCOURAGED by your Pastor, well, then I'm almost speechless.
ALL for what? For pride, for control, for legalism?
Is it because I'm a woman?
This woman told me to pray for them.
I will and I have but right now I'm VERY, VERY DISGUSTED AND HORRENDOUSLY, HORRENDOUSLY DISAPPOINTED.
What spirit is REALLY behind some of these men at this church?
God, please reveal it to them.
I am quite FLABBERGASTED to tell you the honest truth.
THIS would explain to me A LOT OF THINGS however and I hope that God will EXPOSE and bring to light ALL that has been hidden.
Hi,
I am new to reading this blog but I heard about it from an aquaintance and have spent the past 3 days reading it from the start.First thing i want to say is that I no longer live in brandon and haven't for over 10 yrs now. I rarely go there to visit, i don't belong to, or attend, any churches, and i have no friends involved in this incident nor do I know any of the people involved.
Now that said, I have just finished reading this entire blog. And I have to wonder how it is that deborah seems to think that the whole 300 people congregation at bethel temple run the city of brandon? You do realize that there are 40,000 people in brandon(maybe more)and that about 30,000 of them don't attend a chruch at all. So ecaxtly how is it deborah that you think this church and it's congregation have so much power in a city this size. I grew up in brandon and never once saw evidence that is run by "an old boys club" or the "freemasons" LMAO
There are 300 or so people in bethel temples congregation who MIGHT care about this issue, but that leaves about 37,000 people in brandon who just don't give a shit. There is no central group of people who run the entire city and influence the decisions of the entire 40,000 population. Give me a break.
There is so much more i could say about what has been written in this blog. But I'm just gonna leave it at that for now.
Deborah --
1) Will the person who told you pastor Mike Davis was spreading rumors come forward openly?
2) What specifically did she claim Davis said?
" Is this HOW FAR OFF TRACK the church has gotten?....ALL for what? For pride, for control, for legalism?"
Well, yes. That is what is always about, control. That's why it is so important to hold these con men up to biblical standards in their conduct. To not let the "XYZ is well thought of" become a defense. These ministers who violated their oats of office and abused their offices are well thought of because most people have poor judgement. They use unearned respect to abuse the weak and terrorize their membership. The point is humiliation and degradation.
former resident --
4% of the US population are active church going evangelicals who are both politically active and supported neo conservative positions on foreign policy. Do you want to argue the Bush administration never happened?
CD host, another Pastor asked me direct and specific questions about my time at Bethel which I answered.
My answers appeared to be in DIRECT CONTRAST to what this Pastor was told about myself by Pastor Mike himself.
This Pastor did NOT say these words to me but I could tell from the expression on his face that he was TROUBLED in his spirit.
This woman would come forward but she would do so secretly, without exposing who she is.
She does NOT want to go through what I have been through.
She WOULD NOT EVEN TELL ME ALL OF IT.
She just told me that Pastor Mike had told her to her face about a woman who attended church there who sent a letter to the paper and then sued him.
He SAID THIS TO HER DIRECTLY but when she realized this was MYSELF that he had talked to her about, she DID NOT WANT to elaborate or say anything further.
She said that she was also VERY HURT by Pastor Mike specifically and Bethel.
I heard that there was a third woman but I have not found out WHO this woman is yet.
Perhaps God will lead me to her.
Someone has put this awful thing from ebrandon on the google page with my name on it, THREE TIMES.
It is the article about One person is getting too much attention.
I DON'T KNOW how to remove this.
Once is quite enough but THREE TIMES?
Again, an attempt to further humiliate, defame and discredit myself.
CD host, did you notice how tt exposed herself?
She OUTED herself.
I was of the belief that D.F. and tt were the same person.
Shakespeare said, "What a tangled web we weave."
I have a friend who told me that his Scottish grandmother ALWAYS told him, "IF you tell the truth, you NEVER have to REMEMBER what you said."
I never heard this expression before but it IS a VERY GOOD one.
CD host, I was on Unemployment this past year and I was NOT able to find employment as even a substitute teacher, here within Brandon.
There are a SHORTAGE of substitute teachers within the province, as documented in our Brandon Sun newspaper, but I HAVE NOT BEEN ALLOWED TO SUBSTITUTE TEACH here any longer and they REFUSE to even meet with me to discuss this.
I have two letters from the BSD which prove and indicate this.
Well, a Principal who I worked with previously, just called me on Friday morning and he offered me a position until possibly the end of June!
This School Division pays their teachers THE HIGHEST WAGES in the province!
THANK YOU JESUS!
I DON'T want to say too much more on here about it because I DON'T want anyone malicious on here to jeopardize this for me.
I begin on Monday!
Cool eh?
A Pastor told me that we are King's kids and that God TAKES CARE OF HIS KIDS!
Neat, eh?
I had just asked God the day before, "Should I be running for Mayor? Is this YOUR WILL? How can I conceivably and realistically run when I have NO JOB and therefore no extra money for a campaign? God, what is your will? What should I do? I want to be in Your Will."
I received this phone call from this Principal the VERY NEXT morning.
I STILL don't REALLY know IF this is God's Will or not but I do know that DOING ANYTHING to try to improve things within Brandon, for ALL of us, is definitely my passion.
no cd host I don't want to argue that the bush administration ever happened. But are trying to tell me that he was voted into office by only 4% of the population?
To the former resident of Brandon:
Mr. Yogesh Goradia, a multi-millionaire developer from the U.S. came to Brandon with a proposal to build AFFORDABLE HOUSING, a park like setting, etc.
He had ALL SORTS OF WONDERFUL PLANS for our city.
He was NOT ALLOWED to come into Brandon with his project.
BEHIND THE SCENES, I was told by Mr. Goradia's people, that one of our City employees from City Hall, who was heavily involved in investigating the Promenade Project, had been REGULARLY COFFEEING with a gentlemen in town who owns a large majority of the land within Brandon.
I was told by this person that it was their belief and observation that this other gentleman DID NOT WANT this Promenade Project in Brandon.
I was then informed by Mr. Goradia's people that BOTH of these gentleman are FREE MASONS and that Free Masons help each other.
I attended this meeting PERSONALLY and I saw how RUDELY Mr. Goradia was treated. It was awful!
Mr. Burgess is on the Brandon and Area Planning Committee.
Mr. Burgess DID NOT attend this crucial meeting to vote on this project.
Mr. Burgess' lawyer brother has the Brookwood Waverly Development.
Did THIS have anything to do with us NOT getting The Promenade Project within Brandon?
Things have been going on BEHIND THE SCENES FOR YEARS within this city by the boys with money, power and toys.
Of course you are NOT going to know about them. They are done secretly and quietly behind the scenes.
One of these high powered boys supposedly went to City Hall and wrote a cheque for a million dollars to buy more land.
Business men and businesses within Brandon told me that they ALL KNOW about these things and have known about them FOR YEARS but they have been UNABLE TO CHANGE THESE THINGS within this city.
These men are VERY POWERFUL men with lots of money and investments within this city.
How much, if any say, do these men have over what gets into Brandon and what does not?
Are these just speculations or are there facts to back these claims up?
I think that we should find out.
Like I said, I have NOTHING AGAINST the accomplishments of these men.
These men SHOULD BE celebrated for their business smarts and savvy and recognized for this.
I think that we could ALL learn a lot from their VERY SUCCESSFUL business smarts and I TOTALLY APPLAUD these men and their accomplishments.
What I DO have a problem with is WHEN AND IF their influence is preventing others from setting up shop within Brandon.
Is this a fact or is this a myth?
I think that we should start asking these very serious questions.
If this is a myth, then this myth SHOULD BE DISPELLED SWIFTLY AND IMMEDIATELY and NEVER re-introduced again.
IF this is a fact, then we should confront them with this question and ask them directly.
Like I said, I DEEPLY CARE ABOUT ALL OF THE CITIZENS of Brandon and about the BEST INTERESTS AND WELFARE of us all.
Are we being treated equally and fairly?
I think that we should find out.
I think that this is our RIGHT and our DUTY to find this out for ourselves.
Some business men have told me that they were and have been DIRECTLY AFFECTED by these men.
Will they come forward now?
Who knows but let's ask them to.
Is there a whisper campaign going on because people are jealous of the success of these men?
Are these claims legitimate or are they false and need to be refuted?
Let's go after the TRUTH in ALL areas of our city.
Are these successful men being blamed UNFAIRLY for MANY things within this city?
formerresident --
No that is precisely the point. The core supporters of a politician and the number needed to vote them into office can have ratios have 10, 20 , 50, 200 to one. Many campaigns are based on a small group of core supporters.
"You'll stick with tt, eh? Well, you just posted as tt.
So, which is it?
WELL, I THINK THAT YOU JUST GOT YOURSELF CAUGHT! (or punked as they say.)"
So..... I don't get it?
I"m confused as to how tt outed herself/hiself as tt?
"You'll stick with tt, eh? Well, you just posted as tt. " You do realize that both of those are "tt" not different?.....
"So, which is it?" Um.... again, how did they post two different names? They posted the same thing? Seriously what on earth are you saying there?
As for this 'woman' coming forth to tell you what Pastor Mike said to her. I find it (mostly amusing) that all these things you decide you want to be true suddenly have these mysterious people approach you to confirm it.
You may want to try a new way of 'confirming' your stories, you've used this one an awful lot. Not for a second to i believe even one bit of what you've said.
Well cd host that very well may be how it work sin the usa, but brandon is in Canada, and don't me wrong I am in agreement that all governments are corrupt, and I'm sorry but brandon is not run by the bethel temple. And deborah I woul dlike to know if it is such a big secret so well kept, how is that you and Mr.Goradia from the U.S know about it.
I in fact did grow up in brandon and i do know some people who are or have been in very high places in brandon so I decided to ask them about this wole conspiracy brandon theory ( I'm a bit of a conspiracy buff, so I secretly really wanted it to be true) But they assured that these are old old rumours that just won't die. And that the men who were accused of being a part this old boys club and free masons group would all be very very old or dead by now. That brandon is a conservative city because it is how the majority of the people who vote think.
I heard a Pastor speak about OPPOSITION to FORWARD MOVEMENT.
He said that we should look at Nehemiah and what Nehemiah went through.
This Pastor said that we are to go forward and expand the Kingdom of God on this planet.
He said that we must OVERCOME OBSTACLES if we are to go forward in God.
He said that THOSE ASSIGNED BY GOD WILL CREATE FRICTION WHEN THEY MOVE FORWARD FOR GOD.
He said that the enemy LOVES PASSIVITY.
He said that GOD'S ASSIGNMENT IS RESTORATION, REVITALIZATION (revival) and RENEWAL.
He said that God is a God OF GOING FORWARD.
He said that we are to POPULATE EARTH WITH HEAVEN.
He said that the passion and the heart is what God works with and that God wants us busy right here on the planet.
He said that ALL the prophets are cheering us on in Heaven IF we do and are doing the work of God.
He said the obstacles that a person will run into are:
1. Ridicule
2. Personal threat
3. Self
He said that Nehemiah had to build that wall around Jerusalem with a trowel in one hand and a sword in the other.
He said that Nehemiah had a PASSION to see the Kingdom of God MOVE FORWARD and to see God's work move ahead.
He said that Nehemiah prayed that God would move in in judgment.
He said that Nehemiah asked God to please deal with them.
He said that 4 nations, who all hated each other, came together in an alliance to try to kill Nehemiah.
He said that we should pray, watch, work and move forward.
He said that the enemy DOES NOT WANT you to understand WHO YOU ARE or WHAT YOUR AUTHORITY IS IN HIM.
He said that Nehemiah OVERCAME in ALL areas. He DIDN'T STOP and have a self-pity party.
He said that we are to focus ON THE ASSIGNMENT that God calls us and has given us to do.
He said that we are in a BATTLE and that we need to be READY for the battle, sold OUT for the vision and for the battle.
My desire is NOT to do battle within the church but to see RESTORATION, revitalization (revival) and renewal come to our churches.
Perhaps MANY of us are guilty, have played a part in this and need to be RESTORED.
uh deborah, let me dumb it down a little, I ment I'll stick with tt as in my name not give my real name. Not that I'd stick with the person tt lol.
Deborah, look at the comments you write on here, look at how you respond to people when they don't agree with you. In general you don't behave in a manner that is acceptable around children. Parents would have a problem with you teaching in the classroom, you do not act proffessional. For those reasons I can see why the BSD would not bring you in to sub. Have you ever thought that maybe you've burned your bridges in those areas? the teachers can request who they do or do not want subbing in their classes. I have children in the school system, I would not allow them in a classroom with you. You are too unpredictable, and I would be concerned for the safety of the children. On top of that, your charge for assult was very public and those are also things that the BSD would pay attention to. You can blame this on "the boys with money" or the church or the conservatives all you like, but in the end it was choices that you made that caused you not to be hireable by the BSD.
I wondered when someone would finally mention all that tt. I am much to busy to be thinking out and posting long responses, but what you just said is exactly what I have been thinking since I first began reading this blog.
Ok I am going to take some time and voice an opinion I formed early in the reading of this blog. After I finished reading I sat back and asked myself what my minds very first thought was. And the scene my mind had built from what I had just read was this: Deborah bought a house from a man who attends bethel temple and whose wife works for bethel. Deborah neglects to have a home inspection and consequently she has repair issues with her new home. So deborah goes to Pastor Mike and tells him of this situation. At which point I am guessing that pastor mike would inform her that he has no authority over the real-estate transactions in brandon or those of his congregation, as real-estate is NOT a church matter. But deborah kept approaching him, deborah kept writing, until which time he told her that he would no longer respond to correspondence about this subject. During all of this deborah was also writing letters to the editor, and losing her puppy, for whatever mysterious reason. She was having altercations with her neighbors resulting in criminal charges being laid against her and on top of all this her father was dying and (for a some reason) she accepted an offer on her house wich was unnacceptable to her. She bought another house and made another irrational decision, by not having an inspection and then the criminal charges became public, she lost her job and the stress simply became too much for Deborah. She snapped, understandably so, and she got things kinda mixed up,and began confusing who was actually responsible for the events that took place. This naturally evolved into the conspiracy, as I'm sure that's how she honestly feels (like everyone is against her).
I believe that deborah's heart is in the right place but she is so stressed, she is hurt and it's making her unable to keep things straight.
That's my opinion anyway. That's how my mind initially read the situation. I believe deborah, that in an attempt to do much good for the people of the community around you, you inadvertently hurting yourself and your family. I truly hope you can come to peace with all of this someday soon. And not because you got your recognition, or because a rule was over turned or a mayor was voted out or whatever. But because you yourself, forgive and find peace within you. I feel your stress so strong when I read your posts... it hurts. Please deborah take some time for yourself and find peace.
This one has worked well for many... take some deap breaths and read it carefully.
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can and
The wisdom to know the difference.
Former resident of Brandon, NOPE, things happened EXACTLY as I stated that they did, with NO EXCEPTIONS.
The devil is very active, alive and thriving in some of our churches and within some of these so-called Christians.
I am going to expose these witches for ALL of their mischief within and outside of Bethel, with my neighbors, etc., if I am able.
One of these witches, Julie, V.A., used to work at Wal-Mart. I don't know if they fired her or what from there.
I hear she now works at a Nursing Home or whatever and is CONSTANTLY gossiping and causing trouble over there.
I believe her to be tt on here and you can tell by the HORRIBLE comments that she has made, that she is USED to creating absolute hysteria, TERRIBLE LIES and nonsense.
The other gossip from Bethel FORCES her mother to give her $1000.00 per month from her pension.
Both are HORRENDOUS, trouble making gossips within Bethel.
They are BOTH idle with NOTHING better to do than to watch, observe and complain about others within this church.
This other gossip is Gayle K., who the court heard HELPED and was TOTALLY INVOLVED IN EVERY WAY in APPROACHING and assisting my neighbor in taking away my 9 yr. old daughter's puppy.
Will Bethel DISCIPLINE and deal FIRMLY with these women?
Probably not.
The DESPICABLE comments of tt exemplify WHO THIS WOMAN IS. What she says about me is WHAT SHE IS. What you say is WHAT YOU ARE.
Mr. Fred McGuinness stated in our Community newspaper on Thursday, March 11, 2010 that he believes that Brandon is a racist community.
He cited the ghetto north of the tracks for newcomers from Europe, the fact that Brandon NEVER forged and alliance with the descendants of Sitting Bull who live at Sioux Valley and the rejected opportunity to accept an aboriginal-owned casino that he believes would have breathed life into our moribund traditional core.
20 yrs. ago today, our Brandon Sun stated that Mr. Rick Borotsik, another Progressive Conservative Mayor, voted AGAINST a $1.25 million dollar pharmaceutical plant in Brandon's Industrial Park.
These investors were from Hong Kong and were called United Pacific Company.
AGAIN, ANOTHER BUSINESS opportunity for Brandon TURNED DOWN, rejected, turned away.
I wrote an open letter to Premier Greg Selinger and Agricultural Minister Roseanne Wowchuk regarding BiPole 111 and the extra $640 million dollar price tag that this will cost when the province is recording a fiscal debt of $555 million dollars.
We should be VERY concerned regarding the Northwest Water Project from North Dakota that has been STOPPED from proceeding, so far by the courts in the U.S.
We DON'T need foreign aquatic species from the U.S. in our Lake Winnipeg and Hudson Bay, never mind that HORRIBLE Asian carp.
I just found out that Mr. Ted Turner, who owns CNN, shares of MGM, has shares in a bison ranch near Swan River.
He has 3,000 bison and hopes to expand to at least 10,000 bison.
He is raising and selling bison meat.
Mr. Turner is described as as the LARGEST LAND OWNER in North America, owning over 2 million acres of land.
Cattle farmers from that area told me that ALL bills for this ranch are sent directly to Mr. Ted Turner in the U.S..
I have the emails, phone numbers, you name it for this operation.
I believe that it is time to TELL and try to deal with the truth within Brandon, within our province, etc.
My aim IS and has ALWAYS BEEN to work FOR the VERY BEST INTERESTS of us within Brandon and within Manitoba.
I have developed an EXTREME LOVE and PASSION for politics and for trying to help and assist my community, to the VERY BEST of my ability.
IF you were LIED ABOUT, slandered, had FALSE WITNESS, FALSE TESTIMONY given against yourself, you then MAY be able to understand WHY I have been so upset.
I will do whatever I can to EXPOSE the truth and the ABSOLUTE NONSENSE that I went through and have been through, from some of these VERY UNSTABLE INDIVIDUALS, just because I DEEPLY CARE about this community and where we are headed, going.
There was NEVER an assault on my part on this neighbor.
This is a COMPLETE LIE fabricated because this neighbor must be MENTALLY UNSTABLE and because she wanted my 9 yr. old daughter's puppy.
This neighbor was AIDED, ASSISTED, ABEITED, you name it, from this Gayle K., a NOTORIOUS gossip from Bethel.
These LIES were spread about myself throughout my entire neighborhood.
These idle gossips from Bethel ran with ALL of these stories like a run-away train.
They LIVE and EXIST for this kind of TRASH because they have NOTHING BETTER to occupy their time.
They had ATTENTION. They had a CAPTIVE AUDIENCE, I presume. SOMEBODY was actually paying some notice to these women.
I am a teacher. I have a Bachelor of Education degree that I spent 4 years obtaining from a University in Saskatchewan.
I had NO PROBLEMS at ANY church that I have ever attended EXCEPT at Bethel.
I am QUITE DISGUSTED with some of these so-called Christians and VERY UNSTABLE individuals from this church and within Brandon.
The MENTALITY in this town of some of these individuals and THEIR BEHAVIOR is QUITE DISGUSTING and DEPLORABLE!
I think that Bethel needs to WAKE UP perhaps and start ADDRESSING some of the nonsense that goes on WITHIN their own walls or have they JUSTIFIED this nonsense?
We are SUPPOSE to be on the SAME TEAM and NOT fighting with each other, going behind each other's backs, etc.
I can legally sue these gossips from Bethel for telling and repeating things that are FALSE, for lying, for spreading rumors, for mischief, one for betraying confidences, you name it.
I am QUITE DISGUSTED with some of these so-called Christians right now.
The ABSOLUTE CRAZINESS that I experienced at Bethel just DOES NOT EXIST and/or go on, is NOT ALLOWED and/or perpetuated within some of these other churches. THANK GOD!
Mr. James O'Connor documented today in our Brandon Sun just SOME of what he went through when he, and The Brandon Sun questioned the Youth for Christ proposal within Brandon.
He indicated in today's Brandon Sun that: "A Brandon Sun column that called YFC a "Bible-brandishing" organization prompted a complaint to the Manitoba Human Rights Council, the Manitoba Press Council and Brandon police. When it comes to battling the secular world, YFC is clearly in it to win it."
"Of course, none of the complaints were found to have merit-a fact the Free Press writer didn't bother to mention."
"As the Sun's managing editor, I had to write a lengthy defense of the paper's actions for the YFC-related complaint against us and it really did make me reflect carefully on if we really had crossed the line."
There is also ANOTHER article in today's Brandon Sun by David McConkey; davidmcconkey.com, regarding Rights and religion.
His article says: "When rights are being eroded, it is usually from religious pressure.
According to a recent large-scale poll conducted by Project Teen Canada, one-third of Canadian teenagers identify themselves as Roman Catholic.
What's even more interesting? More teenagers in Canada identify themselves as MUSLIM than the Anglican and United churches combined."
The demographics, they are a CHANGING!
Europe has seen this dramatically.
The Muslim population is steadily increasing throughout and across the planet while our native populations are declining.
We'd better WAKE UP!
so that was your way of saying "I know you are, but what am I?" lol. I really don't care who you think I am, I've made it clear I'm not. Again deborah, with all those things mentioned I suggest you put some research into instead of just believing what every anyone tells you of the situations. Then you wouldn't have your foot in your mouth and have to try and insult your way out of it. I didn't come here and lie, gossip etc.. I don't personally know you, I came to defend what I knew to be lies due to first hand witness. Say what you like, you're posts have a way of proving my points anyway.
"The DESPICABLE comments of tt exemplify WHO THIS WOMAN IS. What she says about me is WHAT SHE IS. What you say is WHAT YOU ARE."
Its the whole, i'm rubber your glue argument you're putting up for your defense?
As much as you want to try and claim that you haven't lied about the events, there has been more then one instanance where you've been caught in outright lies. You keep trying to go with these paranoid accusations that myself and tt are which ever people you think suits your stories at the moment. I've yet to see you address any of the questions many people have asked, I've yet to see you address the obvious discrepensies in your stories, even though it's been asked many times.
Why keep hiding behind these rants deborah? Any time someone mentions or asks any question you start in with these paranoid descriptions of your puppy and the schools, etc. Why can't you just answer a question for once? Why keep hiding behind this?
I've yet to see you address any of the questions many people have asked
Deborah has answered the question I asked. What was the original charge, do you have documentation, what specifically was the church discipline part of this case.... Most of the stuff I see Deborah being asked is a distraction. They are questions meant to resolve unimportant side issues, along the line of "before the police beat the suspect did they eat at Denny's or Holiday Inn?".
CD Host - she has only answered questions that you pose and never fully. Such as how did the letter actually get from her hand to the paper? Or how about regarding why Bethel or the School board would be financially responsible for a member of their organization in a legal business transaction that no lawyer would touch for her. She constantly states that she hates gossip and people who talk behind others backs. But does so all through this blog, never showing any proof that anyone has actually gone behind her back and talked to others about her in a negative way. What proof does she have that the neighbor is connected to the admin staff of Bethel. She even goes so far to bring some person who smokes and calls that person selfish and stubborn. Are we to take her word and just condemn that person on what she says. For that matter, what does he have to do with this blog anyway, why is she gossipping about him. Accountablility goes more than one way. There must be reason why the rest of her family is not speaking on here other than the one who wanted his phone number removed. He also hinted at information that wasn't told so far. There seems to be alot that hasn't been said yet, i highly doubt the whole picture of this is being viewed. I am curious though, where is this job that she got teaching? Is it in Brandon, or elsewhere. There seems to be alot of assumptions based on half stories being told.
no cd host the questions asked are those that show people what deborah's character is. Fact: Deborah was charged with assult. Deborah was asked to find another church that supported her views as hers were obviously different than Bethel. Deborah lied on several occassions that have full out proof of the opposite that she claims (ie: court issues, its public record) No one argued that she didn't lose her puppy, no one argued that she didn't recieve a letter. Honestly if you get the chance I suggest you actually make time to meet deborah and see her. I'm sure you just as every other source that at one time supported her (ie: the local newspaper) would be pretty red faced to be agreeing with what she's saying. There is a reason Deborah has little to no support for her accusations in this city and that is because the people here kinda know who she is and how disturbed she is.
Actually cd host, there were many valid questions, even if they didn't come from you.
Anonymous --
The only question of yours related to the discipline case even remotely is, "Such as how did the letter actually get from her hand to the paper?"
And she had indicated she doesn't know. I don't find that plausible either. But as I've indicated any privilege regarding Deborah's excommunication (and there isn't any I can see that still exists) rests with her. She's free to buy 3 full pages in the Globe and the Mail and publish all the documents related to her case.
So I'm not sure why it matters how this letter got out. IMHO Deborah is defending herself against irrelevant charges. She strengthens her case by having gone to the newspapers since it indicates a clear desire for appeal. I understand not with this crowd, which doesn't see coming to a church discipline blog as indicating a desire to have her church discipline reviewed.
TT --
None of my case against Davis requires Deborah to be telling the truth. I had a similar situation a few years back with Doug Phillips who had invalid excommunication with Jen Epstein. Epstein had fabricated some details regarding her husband, which didn't change things like pastors falsifying academic credentials, churches misrepresenting their legal scope of authority.... I haven't retracted a word of the charges against Phillips because they were completely independent of what Epstein said; unlike many of Epstein's other supporters who didn't focus on the clear aspects.
I've read parts of hundreds of Deborah's posts here. She doesn't express herself very well, possibly for the reasons you indicate, I wouldn't know. What I do know was that Davis expressed himself very clearly in that truly vile letter and there is plenty there to call him into question regardless of what Deborah did or didn't do.
Nice try with the assault but the church discipline case was over Deborah's attempt to form a PAC.
I made no claim that her being charged with assult had anything to do with her being asked to find another church? In fact it happened after she was asked to leave, how you got to that conclusion is beyond me. I'm failing to see where Davis' letter was vile lol? perhaps you could point out exactly what he said that was vile?
Honestly cd host you're not an outsider looking in with the benefit of an unbiased opinion. You have an agenda and a blog to prove it lol, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that it takes very little to no "proof" for you to accept everything deborah says and then to add to the mix your own assumptions. I have no idea who this epson and philips people are nor do I actually care to hear the story. If its anything like this post its full of one sided assumptions on your side, with little basis for any of it. Carry on, carry on.
TT --
Much as you would like to excuse Davis by saying that this blog exists merely to bash churches the fact is that Deborah did verify many of the major points of dispute. Just a few days back we had a person claim that Davis cut contact with Boschman over the housing incident and not over her attempt to form a PAC to oppose the conservative party in the local elections.
I've listed Davis various offenses multiple times. Starting with the ongoing one regarding his illicitly denying an appeal. We have an ongoing debate here in the United States about people who were wrongfully treated by ruling entities without due process; people who were detained and tortured rather than tried. And basically the pro government side makes the same "they deserved it" sorts of claims.
I think everyone is entitled to due process.
And of course Deborah would be bring her church discipline complaints to a blog that specializes in church discipline. Where should she bring them to a blog that specializes in waterskiing?
That is exactly my point CD Host, why are you telling tt and df that their questions are not relevant and to quit arguing with deborah regarding gossip and such, yet you allow deborah to gossip and call down others when they are not even apart of this topic. Why does there seem to be a double standard when it comes to her accusations and anyone's questions regarding them. Doesn't this hint at some hidden information that is not being told. She accusses everyone else of lieing to suit their interests and wants answers, they are usually given, but she won't answer the questions regarding her discrepencies in her story. Timeslines shift, people have changed, events have changed. Why is that not relevant, does it not call up her integrity?
CD Host.
Re: contact cut
Not sure of the point you were trying to make with that comment. Deborah herself stated on this blog that, after emailing Davis multiple times about the house, Davis responded by informing her that all emails regarding that issue would be ignored/deleted. This was straight from her, and it was the assumption all of us had been making about that specific email.
Re: Denied appeal
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. He did not deny her an appeal. No where do we find any evidence that Davis had ever been properlly or even actually asked for an appeal. You've stated before that the evidence for her desire for an appeal is her presence on this blog. Coming on this blog was not a request for an appeal. It was a request to clear up something that was mispoken by an individual. She yell it in the middle of the street, she can put it on every website, but unless she goes through the proper channels, she has not actually requested an appeal. If she had approached him or HIS leadership about it, and then nothing was done, I would agree. But that isn't the case.
Also
As everyone else has been stating, all Deborah has proven were the thing that everyone has agreed with from the beginning.
your attempt at being witty is lacking. where did I say she shouldn't have brought complaints about church discipline here? The only thing I objected to was you taking advantage of a mentally unstable person. Honestly its disgusting what you'll do to try push your agenda. what major points did she verify that were disputed? Everyone agreed that there was a letter, everyone agree'd that the said letter suggested she find a new church. So I"m failing to see where on earth deborah proved disputes wrong? lol. Has deborah contacted the PAOC about an appeal? Deborah has stalkish tendencies so where you think it unwise to cut off contact, those who've had the opportunity to meet her would agree that it was a wise choice. I"m sure there are various reasons why contact was cut, none of which you have the privilage of knowing, so you just assume to know and think its fact lol. I imagine the letter to the paper was just the straw that broke the camel's back. I even agree there are some peope who have valid complaints in church discipline where they were wrongfully disciplined. Unfortunately Deborah's case is not one of those cases.
Anonymous --
You might want to get an account or at least use a stable name.
That is exactly my point CD Host, why are you telling tt and df that their questions are not relevant and to quit arguing with deborah regarding gossip and such, yet you allow deborah to gossip and call down others when they are not even apart of this topic. Why does there seem to be a double standard when it comes to her accusations and anyone's questions regarding them. Doesn't this hint at some hidden information that is not being told. She accusses everyone else of lieing to suit their interests and wants answers, they are usually given, but she won't answer the questions regarding her discrepencies in her story. Timeslines shift, people have changed, events have changed. Why is that not relevant, does it not call up her integrity?
Well first off there have been 600 posts addressing Deborah's claims. But the point of this blog is to focus on her excommunication and/or any organized harassment by the church. TT, DF and Deborah herself keep wanting to take the focus off the excommunication and look at a broader context of Deborah's life. None of that is on topic. I'm being permissive about it because this thread was part of Deborah's campaign for office....
But in terms of the actual topic, Deborah's appeal is grounded in Davis procedural misconduct. It really don't matter if Deborah was a bad person who was wrongfully excommunicated or a good person who was wrongfully excommunicated. This attempt to conflate Davis' official misconduct with Deborah's legal / financial / mental problems simply amounts to an Ad-hominem attack.
As for going to credibility. Absolutely. Deborah has little credibility in her community that's why her evidence was such a crucial and key turning point. It proved her attackers, who denied every aspect of Deborah's case were either lying or mistaken. You can read the old posts they were absolutely unequivocal that she wasn't excommunicated and if she was it was for assault not for attempting to organizing a PAC to oppose Davis' buddies. Then low and behold the actual letter surfaces....
You might want to re-read those old posts you're talking about cd host, i think you've misread at least some of them.
As for us being 'mistaken' about the excommunication, people can read the letter, she showed proof on her own that it wasn't even an excommunication. I get that you seem to want it to be, but that doesn't make it so.
Also, as for us going off topic, you've allowed her to repeatedly make false statements (that didn't relate to any chuch disipline/excommunication discussions) so as long as that continues, i'll also continue to point it out. (And no, before you make that assumption, i'm not saying she should be silenced. I'm saying as long as she prints untruths, i'm going to keep printing the truths.)
and low and behold the letter says nothing of what deborah claimed? lol none of us denied the letter, we all knew what it said, it was in the paper. I still don't agree with the tern excommunication as by definition it doesn't match this case. and again it had nothing to do with bothering Davis' buddies that she was asked to leave, it had to do with values that didn't match with the church. (in all honesty I'm fairly certain that the only real contact that Davis has with the mayor is the mayor's prayer breakfast thats put on every year by the ministerial, they're not friends, not sure how deborah got that idea) The only thing you seem to be able to do CD host is to try and twist the actual facts to try and make it appear that there was a wrong doing when there wasn't. BTW what happened to the last post I made, why wasn't it posted.
TRT --
The proper form for an appeal? Deborah has gone to:
1) The session
2) The community
3) The state
4) Independent counsel
And Davis has ignored all of these:
He has refused her the right to a trial before the session
He has refused to address concerns regarding his acts as raised by the local press
He has refused to address concerns raised by the national press.
He has refused to answer or cooperate in an independent investigation nor answer basic questions regarding her current standing.
PAOC is well aware of her complaints. They are well aware of the complaints from the community and from the state. It is the obligation of PAOC to verify that their ministers:
*"at all times, give proper place to the responsibility of his/her ministerial duties
* Maintain accurate church records
Both of which this calls into question. Even if Deborah were to die tomorrow this case would need to be addressed by them.
As for cutting contact he is not entitled to do so as the restoring church. Until Boschman has been properly erased from the rolls or transferred he is not allowed to cut off contact. And Deborah has never said that Davis refused to talk to her about her house, she said he has refused to discuss anything with her. She has been quite explicit he cut off all contact. I'm not sure what the house has to do with anything. Davis was at best tangentially involved in the house.
I do have an account, but why put it in the middle of the fight when slander from Deborah just corrupts the topic itself. Everyone who has said anything to refute Deborah's remarks she terms as one of the women from Bethel. Hopefully this name will work better than anonymous. You do make a point that she has answered your questions regarding the matter. But when pressed on details regarding the incidents, she does not remember she says. You said it yourself that you have a problem with how the letter got to the paper, but that it didn't matter. Why doesn't it matter, did she lie about how it got there? If she had nothing to hide about the incident than she should have either taken it directly to the paper or like you said, taken out a 3 page spread for it. At least then it would have been upfront and out in the open. Instead she doesn't tell the whole truth about it. Now i am not above thinking that the church has alot to answer for, in this and other situations. While i have been to church's in Brandon, i still believe that i will trust myself before anyone else. How do questions regarding who and what was said in the church and her refusal to answer them seem wrong. When she talks about what happenned, she never gives details about it. Just they were whispering and looking at me so they must have been setting me up to take my daughters dog away. Does she say anything about how she didn't just ask Pastor Dave to do something about the house sale incident, but walked up and made an issue of it in public and a scene after a service. Or the accusations she made regarding the pastor to everyone who would listen (before the letter was sent) over the house. Or how she blamed Bethel because of the not being able to teach in Brandon, yet she had nothing good to say to anyone again who would listen, how is the church responsible for that.
And as for the Ad-hominem attack against Deborah, come on, are you serious. If you put your back to someone you trust and they kick you in the butt, then warn them, and they do it again from behind, don't you think that at that point you have a right to be done with them. With actions like that, doesn't a person responsible for the wellbeing (spiritual, physical, or mental) of others have a responsibility of correcting the situation. By definition of Ad-hominem you are trying to say that the pastor didn't like deborah so made a judgement call because of that dislike. while definately not impossible, alot to assume on someone's word who's integrity on the information she gives.
The right to a trial before the session? What on earth are you talking about? Which session are you talking about? when he wrote a letter telling her to CONSIDER finding a church that better suited her values? I was unaware you need trials before writing letters. He has no obligation or need to do anything with the press, nor speak with them. (same goes with national presses) (FYI Provincial, not state, we're not americans here) And who's independant investigation? Yours? Again, he is under no obligation to you nor the press. Really your stretching things to make it fit what you want here.
As for cutting contact, I believe deborah said he informed her he wouldn't be responding to or reading anymore of her emails. (With which she repeatedly harassed him) I know we're in the age of computer technology, but there are more ways to communicate other than through a computer.
lol cd host you're banking a lot on deborah telling the truth in all these situations, which generally as a rule she doesn't.
Okay...You made me go back through the discussion. Remember, I've been taking meticulous notes about everything Deborah has said up until the 400 post mark.
Please inform me what posts or statements tell you that she has gone to
1) The Session
3) The State
As well please indicate where you get the impression that;
"He has refused to answer or cooperate in an independent investigation nor answer basic questions regarding her current standing."
Deborah has NOT ONCE indicated that she has spoken with Pastor Davis about this since. Here are the things Deborah has claimed to have contacted Davis/Bethel about
- Her House
- Her Dog
- Congregation members
She has not once stated that she has spoken with the Leadership of Bethel about this. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that she hasn't spoken to them. I'm saying she hasn't indicated this so far. I don't know how many times we need to mention that the request, the decision to make the request, and the apparent lack of an appeal so far all fall within the guidlines set out by the PAOC constitutions. These constitutions, which are readily available to both congregation members, and non-members alike, also indicate the proper channels to go through in regards to appeals to discipline, or general complaints about a pastor or any other leader. Without SOMEONE going through these channels, nothing will be done, simple as that. You think that's wrong, but it's the policy. She hasn't been denied anything in regards to an appeal or trial in front of the session (church board in PAOC churches). You can't be denied what you don't request.
Let me use an example. I'm walking down the street and get robbed. I scream to everyone around me that this has happened to me. Someone else could tell a police officer about what I said, but unless I speak with the police myself, the robber will not face justice regarding this. Does that mean that I wasn't robbed? No. Does that mean the system is at fault? No. I'm not trying to suggest that Deborah is at fault for what happened, but she has not told us that she has spoken with the church leaders requesting an appeal. And she definitely has not spoken with any district or national executive regarding this. Therefore, she hasn't requested an appeal. She has just told everyone her story.
Back to contact cut.
I never stated that Davis actually cut contact. Going by the accounts of Deborah herself, he hasn't cut contact. She has taken his response to her inquiries about the house as meaning that contact is cut, but her evidence, the letter response, indicates otherwise.
Direct qoute, from Boschmans second post.
"I sent my former Pastor a letter from a house inspector, a real estate agent just to PROVE that my claims and allegations were truthful and legitimate. This was right after signing the papers and NOT getting a building inspector to inspect this house that I bought from the church Administrator's husband.
I received a letter back from my former Pastor stating, "Any further correspondence from you regarding this matter will be deleted and/or ignored.""
Also from November 15 1:16am
"I sent Pat's letter addressing all of these house issues to Bethel and that is when I received a letter back from them stating, from the desk of Pastor Mike, it said:
"Any further correspondence from you in this regard will be deleted and/or ignored.""
You have to realize that when Deborah makes a statement like "tried to expose the truth", she is not necissarily talking about her excommunication. She has claimed that this happened because she was trying to expose the truth. A lot of her posts relate to the idea of an "Old Boys Club" or the "Boys with Toys" that run the city simply through their $ and influence. These are the "truths" that she is most usually trying to expose. That's been part of her reasoning behind the dog, job, and even church situations.
The PAOC definitely knows about this. They keep good tabs on their churches, including discipline actions. More often than not (from my witness experience and involvement) the District will intervene pre-emptively with most problems. If they have investigated, we likely wouldn't know. They would have no reason to tell anyone their findings, and we would have no right to hear them. That is, unless Deborah spoke with them, and requested an appeal or an answer. But even then, the only person who would have a right to hear about any of this is Deborah.
Hellow Bdn Resident and welcome to the blog:
Everyone who has said anything to refute Deborah's remarks she terms as one of the women from Bethel. Hopefully this name will work better than anonymous. You do make a point that she has answered your questions regarding the matter. But when pressed on details regarding the incidents, she does not remember she says.
Her descriptions of various incidents have been inconsistent with each other. For example the issue with the yelling at the child care person. I have never argued that:
1) Deborah does a good job presenting her case
2) There aren't a lot of incidents which look bad
Again think of the analogy of a police officer who takes a well known hooligan to an ally and nightsticks him a few times. There are incidents and lots of people will think "he deserved it". That doesn't change the fact that the officer's actions were entirely in the wrong.
You said it yourself that you have a problem with how the letter got to the paper, but that it didn't matter. Why doesn't it matter, did she lie about how it got there?
Assume she did. I don't see how that changes the excommunication. Deborah tends to deny elements of the case she doesn't need to in mounting her defense.
If she had nothing to hide about the incident than she should have either taken it directly to the paper or like you said, taken out a 3 page spread for it. At least then it would have been upfront and out in the open. Instead she doesn't tell the whole truth about it.
Yes it is a problem. It is a problem as a candidate for office, a problem as a defendant in an appeal and a problem for a PAC leader. In fact if she had been successfully in establishing her PAC these sorts of "off book" lobbying could get her arrested.
But again the issue is Davis and his conduct.
Now i am not above thinking that the church has alot to answer for, in this and other situations.
Well that is precisely my point. The church has something to answer for here. They are not white lilies in all this. They failed miserably in their responsibility to administer discipline as command by Jesus in Matt 18.
While i have been to church's in Brandon, i still believe that i will trust myself before anyone else. How do questions regarding who and what was said in the church and her refusal to answer them seem wrong.
Because those weren't the things she was charged with. If Bethel wants to clean up this mess and then excommunicate her for these other incidents, fine.
Think about a trial for armed robbery and the prosecution brings up previous arrests for DWI. They aren't relevant to the armed robbery, that doesn't mean they aren't crimes just they are unconnected. Deborah doesn't have to defend her entire life just one specific charge:
-- Was her attempt to form a PAC an act of disrespect to the governing officials of Brandon so grave as to warrant an excommunication.
If the answer is no, the case is over. Even if tomorrow Deborah went over and beat the dog stealing neighbor to death.
When she talks about what happenned, she never gives details about it. Just they were whispering and looking at me so they must have been setting me up to take my daughters dog away. Does she say anything about how she didn't just ask Pastor Dave to do something about the house sale incident, but walked up and made an issue of it in public and a scene after a service.
Nope and improper actions in church are perfectly legitimate issues for her retrial after her appeal is granted.
(Bdn resident part 2):
Or the accusations she made regarding the pastor to everyone who would listen (before the letter was sent) over the house. Or how she blamed Bethel because of the not being able to teach in Brandon, yet she had nothing good to say to anyone again who would listen, how is the church responsible for that.
Her argument regarding teaching is that Bethel organized a conspiracy of harassment as part of her excommunication. There have been multiple cases involving these sorts of conspiracies of harassment involving people thrown out of churches. I can give you cases with fraud, rapes, false imprisonment.... That sort of intimidation is rather standard fare for churches.
Heck the thing with a dog, I recognized immediately though I don't think Deborah did. It was common among baptists in the 19th century. The organizations that became the KKK after the civil war used to nail the dogs of abolitionists or their local supporters to a tree outside their house. The message was "your kids are next". They didn't like people who disagreed with their positions on miscegenation, had congregationalist / anglican leanings (the norther abolitionists were often congregationalists or anglicans while the proto-KKK were Baptist).... I think the dog symbolism was classic church intimidation, quite literally.
DF --
The right to a trial before the session? What on earth are you talking about? Which session are you talking about? when he wrote a letter telling her to CONSIDER finding a church that better suited her values? I was unaware you need trials before writing letters.
No you need trials before excommunicating people. If Deborah isn't excommunicated and welcome to attend Bethel than Davis could just say so and be done with this. The letter establishes the charges it was not the last step.
He has no obligation or need to do anything with the press,
As I've mentioned before, under his theory of showing deference to leaders yes he does. He was urged to cooperate by the legislature.
(FYI Provincial, not state, we're not americans here)
No I meant state. A state is a self-governing political entity. The term State can be used interchangeably with country. The word state in US context goes back to the time of the articles of confederation and the fact that the states can dissolve the union so in some abstract sense they are still self governing.
And who's independant investigation? Yours?
Again, he is under no obligation to you nor the press. Really your stretching things to make it fit what you want here.
Actually Deborah's standing must be released at her request and he is obligated to respond. I've given you documents regarding membership obligations of churches months back now. Maintaining an accurate roll and discriminating it to the Christian community is his obligation. If Davis doesn't like this he can stop being a pastor. You can stomp your feet all you want that Davis doesn't have obligations to the Christian community, but yes he does.
As for cutting contact, I believe deborah said he informed her he wouldn't be responding to or reading anymore of her emails. (With which she repeatedly harassed him) I know we're in the age of computer technology, but there are more ways to communicate other than through a computer.
He didn't respond to mine either. And I've never harassed him.
"He didn't respond to mine either. And I've never harassed him"
Maybe not, but you're questioning him on behalf of a person who has repeatedly harassed him. Its like telling a stalker that they can't contact their victim, but feel free to have your buddy call them up.
Aside from that, you can claim he has an obligation to talk to you or the press, but it doesn't make it true. He can honor leadership and laws without going to the press. Again, this is you're interpretation of the scriptures/constitution. You're looking at it with a biased stance. You're looking to find constitutional (laws?) and interpreting them to suit what you want him to do.
TRT --
The session.
Deborah indicated she has repeatedly raised this issue with people from Bethel, i.e. members of the session. Other people have complained about the degree to which she has attempted to interact with the session: harassment, local papers.... I particularly noted this on the Brandon boards discussing the elections and her frequent articles / letters being published.
I know one of the mayoral candidates ran on the "I've never been arrested" since evidentially a lot of the candidates had had legal problems.
Comments like, "I contacted the Premier's office, CBC, fightback@goldhawk.com,letters@macleans magazine, you name it." indicate a pretty extended campaign.
The state --
Again the CBC is empowered to investigate issues of human interest. Traditionally the state has been able to review an excommunication, and as far as I know the Oath of Supremacy is still in effect after Elizabeth reinstated it. I understand your church likely rejects the Oath.... My point is simply she has made repeated attempts to appeal.
As for her not following PAOC procedure and making things much tougher on herself, agreed. Deborah is a terrible lawyer. But again this among issues related to her fitness for trial is why a canon lawyer (or the equivalent) should have been assigned to her to help her with the defense.
So I absolutely agree Deborah should take these steps. We don't disagree there. Where we do disagree is whether PAOC should have considered an obvious attempt to appeal and asked if she wanted to file a full appeal. And yes I do consider that an obligation of the leadership to present her with her options under the rules and either indicate she has refused the appeal or process it.
Your analogy with the robbery is a good one. Citizens reporting a robbery are not obligated to know what the correct paperwork is to file a report / complaint. Rather the police officer must guide them through the process once they have indicated a desire to file a report / complaint.
TRT --
You have to realize that when Deborah makes a statement like "tried to expose the truth", she is not necissarily talking about her excommunication. She has claimed that this happened because she was trying to expose the truth. A lot of her posts relate to the idea of an "Old Boys Club" or the "Boys with Toys" that run the city simply through their $ and influence. These are the "truths" that she is most usually trying to expose. That's been part of her reasoning behind the dog, job, and even church situations.
True but this blog only addresses the church discipline issues. She's here about the excommunication. I'm appalled by money in politics too, but that's not a church discipline issue. It is not an issue this blog is setup to handle. But yes, there are two parties making what should be a simple case complex:
a) Deborah who wants to explore the deep context of the Bethel conspiracy
b) The Bethel people who want to put Deborah's entire life on trial rather than addressing her excommunication.
If you go way back to the start of this thread:
There was a claim made that she was excommunicated for unruly behavior like blowing a horn in church. That this was a simple excommunication based on behavioral irregularities.
Deborah countered by asserting that it was not behavioral, rather she excommunicated by a conspiracy of powerful people when she tried to raise secular issues. That's the only reason that things like the Mayor's campaign manager and the head of the school board being at Bethel are relevant. In her theory of the case it goes to Davis' motives.
Low and behold, she produces a letter about the town's budget / advertising strategy where she attempts to form a PAC to push for other spending priorities, and another letter with a lengthy response by her pastor blowing a gasket. Why did the pastor blow a gasket? There really isn't anyway to know.
I can't read minds and Davis himself has been unwilling to elaborate on what exactly were the specifics. But what I do know is this is exactly the sort of thing that should have happened at her trial. We don't know the why, because she never had due process. We don't even have a clear statement of charges. Deborah is not the one who has to write a statement of charges, Davis does and it should have been presented to the session if the other elders agreed.
If PAOC investigated and found that Davis can excommunicate without any sort of process that's a real problem. If there was a process for her excommunication that's a public record and we should know about it. I agree PAOC knows about this. My problem is that there is no sequence of events where the public information is consistent with a licit excommunication.
Your problem is you are relying heavily on the supposed 'fact' that she was even excommunicated. Read the letter, she wasn't told not to attend the church, and that should couldn't come back. She was even told (I believe she mentioned that she phoned the church) that she wouldn't be told not to come to the church. At no point has anyone told her she couln't attend the church, she hasn't been removed from membership (especially seeing as how she didn't have membership in the first place). You're relying on this being an excommunication, which both deborah's statements and letter show it to be otherwise.
DF --
Deborah asserted she was not a member, Davis disagreed. Ultimately Davis, the secretary and the session control the roll. Deborah's opinion the matter is important if she were contesting her standing.
What does the roll say next to Deborah Boschman. You can prove your case rather easily, the roll is a public document.
Feel free to check the roll then.
Regardless if she was considered a member or not has little to do with your assumption of excommunication.
You're putting a lot of stock in trying to 'read between the lines' in his letter to her.
(Just to make it clear, many churches have members who although are called a member, have not taken out membership so they are not given a vote on church business matters, descions, etc... Even if Davis calls her a member, that doesn't mean offically she took out membership. Just that she was considered a part of the congregation.) Either way, its really a moot point, anyone can check out the letter, and deborah's own statements and see that she wasn't excommunicated or kicked out.
(P.S. is there a reason that the last few posts of mine haven't been published? I'm fairly certain they didn't contain any insults or personal attacks? And some made points that i think are valid to this discussion.)
DF and TT --
There was one DF comment and none by TT that were stuck in the queue. Everything else was passed on. I haven't been rejecting any of your posts.
DF and TT --
I don't believe the letter constituted an excommunication. The letter was a statement of the charges. The excommunication followed unless Deborah is welcome to come back to Bethel in which case that should have been mentioned 700 posts ago.
DF --
I understand you work from a Mark Davis is perfect paradigm but you this defense is you trying to have it both ways.
1) Deborah is still a member -- Then Davis is her pastor and he has obligations to her.
2) Deborah transfered -- Then Davis is not her pastor and the roll should reflect the transfer. And yes a transfer is public and he has an obligation to present public information to the public regarding her transfer.
3) Deborah is excommunicated -- Then Davis should produce the excommunication. Again a public act.
Either he has pastoral obligations or he ended them. He doesn't get to treat her as a "stalker" if she is still a member of his church. There are patients I don't like, I don't get to ignore them and let them die because of that. I have an obligation to transfer their file so they are cared for appropriately.
again this is all coming from your stance of wanting to see information your not entitled to. You can claim he has an obligation to provide whatever info to the public but that doesn't make it so. Basically what i'm seeing here is you getting upset because he won't respond to you or what you want.
DF --
You and TT have taken quite a bit of pleasure every time Deborah has gotten tripped up. So I'm going to give you a chance or retract or stand behind what you said.
You've indicated that the church roster is private and Davis has no obligations to wider Christian community regarding it. Are you sure you want to stand behind that?
so what is it that you're asking me to retract or stand behind? I'm not following. As much as you think you're right in everything you've said you're not. and this is getting boring, the same things are being said over and over again. saying the same thing repeatedly won't make it into reality.
I've indicated that the roster is private? at what point did i 'indicate' this? (Yet again, your acting on assumptions.) you're really stretching on these things. Please quote where i 'indicated' this. I'd love to see it.
Glad to be on the blog, thank you.
You state multiple cases regarding others who have done things.
""Again think of the analogy of a police officer who takes a well known hooligan to an ally and nightsticks him a few times. There are incidents and lots of people will think "he deserved it".""
""It was common among baptists in the 19th century. The organizations that became the KKK after the civil war used to nail the dogs of abolitionists or their local supporters to a tree outside their house. The message was "your kids are next".""
Come on, you are to smart to think that beatings from a cop, or dog killings 2 hundred years ago have any basis on this situation. Just because someone of my persuasion (caucasion, african, asian, etc) were to loose a screw and kill someone doesn't mean that i will. You are trying to say that because of actions of someone or somewhere else happenned that it is happenning here in this situation, that smacks of other more vile accusations.
And by other things the church has to deal with, i meant in taking my individuality away, follow the flock, not leading myself. Their administration or code of business is like any other private club. And all churches are like clubs, the more they have, the more they make. I wasn't referring to such things as how many wars the church started in the 12th and 13th century. Deborah is the only one who says the teaching problem was because of bethel. That is a huge jump when neither situation directly connects to the other, except being in Brandon. I know for a fact that the teaching problem came long before any problem with bethel or letter. So her linking the two together is a huge impobability. As to the excummincation, you are already in a discussion about the validity on that so i won't pester you on that point other than to say, from the letter she wasn't actually kicked out, just asked to make sure her ideals and morals lined up with the church. I'll read more on that due to your discussion with DF and TT.
For Deborah, i have a email from both TT and DF. There IP addresses are not from brandon,and they are different, i can guarantee that to you. Sorry, i can't tell you where they are, if they do then that is there personal choice.
To DF
CD: Actually Deborah's standing must be released at her request and he is obligated to respond. I've given you documents regarding membership obligations of churches months back now. Maintaining an accurate roll and discriminating it to the Christian community is his obligation. If Davis doesn't like this he can stop being a pastor. You can stomp your feet all you want that Davis doesn't have obligations to the Christian community, but yes he does.
DF: Feel free to check the roll then.
Regardless if she was considered a member or not has little to do with your assumption of excommunication.
You're putting a lot of stock in trying to 'read between the lines' in his letter to her.
CD: I understand you work from a Mark Davis is perfect paradigm but you this defense is you trying to have it both ways.
1) Deborah is still a member -- Then Davis is her pastor and he has obligations to her.
2) Deborah transfered -- Then Davis is not her pastor and the roll should reflect the transfer. And yes a transfer is public and he has an obligation to present public information to the public regarding her transfer.
3) Deborah is excommunicated -- Then Davis should produce the excommunication. Again a public act.
Either he has pastoral obligations or he ended them. He doesn't get to treat her as a "stalker" if she is still a member of his church. There are patients I don't like, I don't get to ignore them and let them die because of that. I have an obligation to transfer their file so they are cared for appropriately.
DF: again this is all coming from your stance of wanting to see information your not entitled to. You can claim he has an obligation to provide whatever info to the public but that doesn't make it so. Basically what i'm seeing here is you getting upset because he won't respond to you or what you want.
Bdn Resident --
Come on, you are to smart to think that beatings from a cop, or dog killings 2 hundred years ago have any basis on this situation.
Actually yes. The analogy with the policeman was to out of process punishments. Your side, and you in particular, has been claiming that Davis' procedural misconduct is not a problem because of other unrelated acts of Boschman's. As for the dog, it might be related it depends whether Bethel was organizing a campaign of harassment or not. I tend to think they were given what I've seen on here.
Seriously, because i said you aren't entitle to Information, you assume me to be speaking about the member roll? I believe the only time I even mentioned the roll was to say for you to feel free to take a look at it then.
Really, This is exactly what i'm talking about when you start making assumptions. I didn't speak about the roll (other then what i mentioned) and suddenly you assume that I'm claiming all this stuff that you pulled out of who knows what?
No I'm speaking in a general sense, that you want to see info/have him answer your questions, and that's the problem you have with this. That he won't respond to you.
Glad to see you're back to basing your judgements on assumed info, i was missing that for a bit.
DF --
Your last post was essentially a personal attack. It was directed at me so I let it through. Rules apply to you as well.
1) The role is public
2) Boschman's status is contained within the role
ergo: Boschman's status is public. You have been arguing the opposite of that for months.
Davis is violated his obligations regarding the role, among many other things.
CD host, I teach up north where I DO NOT have access to these sites on the Internet.
I travel home EVERY weekend.
#1) No Yelling was done by myself after church. Another lie.
#2) NOTHING ELSE happened during my ten years of VERY SUCCESSFUL substitute teaching within Brandon prior to being asked by Bethel to find another church to worship in.
This is yet ANOTHER LIE conjured up by whomever from Bethel, yet again.
#3) There are MANY, VERY HORRIBLE LIES on here about myself.
Like my friend said, IF it's true, then WHY don't you reveal your TRUE NAME and identity.
WHAT would you have to fear IF it was in fact true, she said?
The reason is because THESE ARE LIES STRAIGHT FROM THE PIT OF HELL.
#4) I NEVER ONCE stalked Pastor Mike or ANYONE ELSE within Bethel.
I did try to make the Administrator accountable for the actions of her husband, which she did not want to be held responsible for.
CD host, I had a message on my telephone when I returned home this evening, of SUPPORT from a woman who told me that NOT EVERYONE IN BRANDON IS AGAINST YOU, Deborah.
I REALLY APPRECIATED THIS from this woman.
This caller then told me about a post on ebrandon regarding the separation of church and state and regarding a Prayer Breakfast that was advertised HONORING our Mayor YET again, put on by the members of Bethel, yet again.
Prime Minister Stephen Harper was in Brandon personally today and a member of the U.S. Consulate or someone representing U.S., Canadian relations, on Thursday.
Prime Minister Harper was UNACCOUNTED FOR for a few hours this afternoon and it is said that he met with local Conservatives here in Brandon.
I am going to get those letters and other documents scanned this weekend.
I just CAN'T BELIEVE the EXTENT to which these individuals will go, to try to DISPROVE, DISCREDIT THE TRUTHS THAT I HAVE STATED ON HERE.
WHO has told these individuals these INCREDIBLE LIES?
NONE of the above statements made by ANY of these individuals are true in ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.
Again, MORE HYSTERIA, created to defame, discredit, slander myself and to redirect or divert responsibility for what ACTUALLY happened here and who is REALLY at fault here.
The individuals who are writing this stuff must be the ones who are mentally unstable and unbalanced because the lies keep GROWING.
This is the FIRST that I have EVER heard of most of the above-mentioned statements made by these individuals.
This is HORRIBLE, VERY DISGUSTING, and incredibly UNSETTLING.
WHO is responsible for spreading and perpetuating these COMPLETE LIES, FALSEHOODS, etc.?
This is coming from SUPPOSED Christian people?
How sad.
The REAL Christians aren't involved in this in ANY way.
They are probably not even aware of all of this nonsense.
This is JUST AWFUL, JUST HORRIBLE that people are going to THIS EXTENT.
They have either been LIED TO themselves, are deceived and/or are just out for mischief.
This D.F. woman claims that she was a first-hand witness and that she helped me look for one of my foster children.
Well, unless you are the Youth Pastor's wife, you are LYING.
She was the ONLY one helping me that evening.
WHO has lied to these individuals and for WHAT purpose and/or reason?
You say Davis violated his obligations, but it doesn't make it true.
(As for personal attack, seriously? Because i said your back to making assumptions? If i planned on attacking i think i'd be much more straightforward than that.)
CD host, it's under Brandon Chatter on ebrandon, in case you are looking for this reference.
I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED FOR ONE MINUTE, IF Bethel didn't contact the Prime Minister's office directly.
I'M SERIOUS!
I REALLY HOPE that our Conservative Canadian Prime Minister is also NOT DUPED by these individuals.
Some of these individuals will go to ANY EXTREME in defense and support of this Conservative Party.
I will be VERY, EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED if I find out that our Prime Minister of Canada even entertained their ABSOLUTE NONSENSE this afternoon.
They appear to like to CREATE an US versus THEM mentality within this city.
I DON'T see this group as UNITING this city but rather as DIVIDING this city via their REPEATED ACTIONS.
I just REALLY hope that I don't hear that our Canadian Prime Minister even believed or entertained ANY of their nonsense for ONE MINUTE.
IF I hear this, then I will be EXTREMELY DISMAYED, disheartened, etc.
The woman S., who left a message on my telephone on Tuesday also said on the voice message, "Are you kidding me. There SURE IS a boy's club in this town. You'd better believe it."
THANK YOU, S. for your voice mail of ENCOURAGEMENT!
I REALLY APPRECIATE this.
It's like the majority of this TOWN has their head in the sand and you're trying to get them to come up OUT of the sand and SEE WHAT IS ACTUALLY GOING ON, taking place here, right under our noses.
It's INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING but I'm NOT going to stop caring, hoping, dreaming and working for a BETTER Brandon.
The NDP, the Liberals, the Green Party, EVERYONE knows what's going on here within Brandon but NO ONE appears to be able to do anything tangible about this because of the VERY LARGE Conservative voting presence within this region.
I just found out from an EXTREMELY RELIABLE source that Canada is supposedly contemplating changing our currency to plastic; as an environmental platform, to save the trees, plastic lasts longer, is MORE cost effective, etc.
Changing our coins to plastic would eliminate the need to use silver, gold and whatever other metals they currently use.
I've heard that our new currency in our future will be called the Amero but then I also understand that they want to eventually establish ONE CURRENCY for the entire world and call it the Phoenix.
They have been contemplating these things for some time, I was told.
I was also told that Canada, the U.S. and Mexico will be known as ONE state or entity in our VERY NEAR future.
We will simply be known as North America, I was told, by this EXTREMELY RELIABLE AND EDUCATED source.
He told me that we will have our new money, the Amero, he believes, by 2012.
I checked out what this man told me. Just google New World Order and it's right there on the internet for ALL to see.
IF you are interested, check this out for yourself.
Our world is a changing.
"This caller then told me about a post on ebrandon regarding the separation of church and state and regarding a Prayer Breakfast that was advertised HONORING our Mayor YET again, put on by the members of Bethel, yet again"
Actually if you looked at the poster at all, the Prayer Breakfast was sponsored by Prayer Canada (An organization based out of BC) and the only other advertizement on it was for a business speaker. Not one thing on it at all about honouring the mayor. Nor is there anything on the ebrandon site or poster about Bethel organizing this event at all. (You seem to like placing the blame on Bethel regardless of any proof at all.)
But no one here needs to take my word for it, I've provided a link:
http://ebrandon.ca/photo.aspx?picture_id=14382
As for Harper being unaccounted for and spending time with the conservatives.
First, There were THREE rumours on ebrandon, that he was at the fire college all day, Visiting conservatives (that one originated at the hockey game,), or at Tim hortons. But not one of these was confirmed at all. The Fact of it is that No one knows where he went. For someone who says they abhor gossip, you seem fond of spreading it.
Secondly, Even if he had been visiting the conservative party members from Brandon, who cares? He's the party leader, I imagine that visiting members of your own party is generally a good thing.
"This D.F. woman claims that she was a first-hand witness and that she helped me look for one of my foster children.
Well, unless you are the Youth Pastor's wife, you are LYING.
She was the ONLY one helping me that evening."
Actually TT claimed she helped you look for them. I didn't, i said i watched what you did to the nursery worker.
But even more interesting, did you suddenly get your memory back on this one? You've been claiming it didn't happen at all, then even though You don't remember your friend said it happened, but you were the 'good guy' in it. So did your memory miraculously come back? Must be a fuzzy memory though, because there were a group of people looking for your foster children.
"Like my friend said, IF it's true, then WHY don't you reveal your TRUE NAME and identity.
WHAT would you have to fear IF it was in fact true, she said?"
As for why won't any of us print our names, are you serious? Anyone can look at the Court registary and see your fondness for frivouless lawsuits. (You've even claimed on here that you'd want to do it) I don't for a minute believe you'd win, but at the same time i don't have a desire to pay lawyer fee's when you decide to make your forth attempt for $10,000.
I'll keep my initials as my identity on here. As you've proven, posting your name doesn't equate honesty so your point on that one is moot.
Well, actually someone DID mention Bethel on ebrandon.
CD host, please access that link.
It is RIGHT on there to contact Bethel Christian Assembly.
This was posted by a poster on ebrandon.
Whether this is indicated on the poster or not, I do not know but a poster on ebrandon suggested that anyone wanting more information, should contact Bethel Christian Assembly.
It is right there on a post on ebrandon for all to see.
For someone who is SUPPOSE to be a Christian, you are ANYTHING BUT this.
REAL CHRISTIANS just DON'T act like you do.
I find it rather ironic that D.F. DID NOT POST for some time.
I saw the sign at Bethel saying, "Welcome back, Pastor Mike" and then the posting of D.F. began again.
Ironic, isn't it?
Funny, how you saw something that NEVER occurred.
I am going to ask the PAOC for a COMPLETE and THOROUGH investigation, Human Rights, EVERYONE.
Heck, I should ALSO contact The Brandon City Police.
I want ALL of these individuals who SUPPOSEDLY saw these things to come forward.
This Gayle K. is a HUGE, NOTORIOUS GOSSIP and LIAR. So is Julie V.A.
I have SEVERAL WITNESSES regarding BOTH of these awful gossips.
I am going to call witnesses to come forward about her from Brandon University, The Brandon Regional Health Center, a church in Thompson, her ex-husband, several Social Workers, etc.
I am NOT going to be lied about, slandered, you name it WITHOUT a HUGE fight.
NO CHRISTIAN that I know STICKS HER NOSE IN, GETS INVOLVED WITH HER NEIGHBORS, and as the courts have documented, HELPS MY NEIGHBOR TAKE MY 9 YR. OLD DAUGHTER'S PUPPY AWAY FROM HER.
THAT is just NOT OKAY at all.
I will bring forward MANY WITNESSES regarding EVERYTHING that I have claimed on this blog.
Let's bring forth this Nursery Worker. I'd like to hear this accusation from her lips personally.
I will call forth media from around the world to investigate these lies.
These are LIES from the pit of hell and you guys started them, perpetuated them, etc.
Well, I'm going to call you on them.
Let's see all of the proof then.
Anybody that can do ALL that has been done to myself and my family has A LOT to COVER UP and TO HIDE.
Well, let's EXPOSE it all, which is what I plan to do.
I ABHOR LIES, gossip, slander, etc.
Someone that I know quite well suggested that perhaps this church should NOT be allowed to continue to function as a church until a COMPLETE and THOROUGH investigation has taken place.
All I know is that a GREAT INJUSTICE has taken place at this church against myself.
MANY lies have been spread, told, repeated and perpetuated.
Where did these originate from?
Well, perhaps we should ALL find out.
Just for the record, OF COURSE I KNOW who took the letter to The Brandon Sun.
I am NOT exposing this person's name because THAT is NOT important.
I indicated this to Pastor Mike in my initial letter to him in the first place.
STOP YOUR LYING, YOUR HYSTERIA AND YOUR COVER UPS.
The VERY informed gentleman that I was speaking to also mentioned that he KNEW OF plans by the U.S. to DRAIN one of our GREAT LAKES in the VERY NEAR future.
He said that this is the ultimate plan and strategy of the U.S.
He also told me that someone spotted Asian carp in one of our Great Lakes last fall.
In today's Brandon Sun, Zack Gross writes that the, "World faces fresh water crisis."
This is in the Small World section of Saturday's (today's) March 20, 2010, Brandon Sun newspaper.
I wonder WHY they STOPPED printing Coleen Simard's writings from a First Nations perspective in our Brandon Sun.
I'm going to write and ask them WHY they stopped printing her observations from a First Nations perspective in our newspaper.
I am inviting First Nations representatives from across Manitoba and across Canada to Brandon after May 1st.
One VERY INTELLIGENT Metis man is coming to Brandon to tell the media how the First Nations can access a COPIUS AMOUNT of money for more Affordable Housing within Brandon.
I WON'T be able to do too much until after June 30th, when my school year ends, although I WILL be home EVERY weekend.
I am FOR Brandon and FOR Westman.
I am FOR truth, integrity and honesty and I ABHOR LIES, slander, gossip, untruths and that is why I have been SO UPSET with my former church.
I want to get the TOTAL TRUTH out there and squash ALL of these untruths, lies, slander, gossip, etc. that is being perpetuated from a small group within this church.
This is TOTALLY UNFAIR to me and it was started by them, as were the initial comments on this blog.
I DON'T THINK that this is HOW REAL Christians are SUPPOSE to treat each other, act towards each other, etc.
THIS is what I have objected to right from the get go.
I feel that I deserve to be treated fairly and equitably.
This is what I have asked for and requested ALL along.
This is what I am seeking.
I DO NOT wish to go back to this church because I ABHOR the behavior of some of these individuals and I DO NOT BELIEVE that this behavior would change.
I just want my day to SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT about WHAT REALLY TRANSPIRED that involved myself.
What these individuals have been told is NOT the truth and this is NOT FAIR to myself, to NOT be able to tell the truth and then that's that.
THIS is what I am seeking and what I have CONSISTENTLY been after.
I think that I deserve at least this request.
THIS is what I have repeatedly been denied.
I will do it through the media then with ALL of my witnesses, proof, paperwork, records, etc.
Actually i read that post on ebrandon, (and if you had paused to actually read what i wrote i said it did NOT mention that Bethel organizes it, not that they didn't mention bethel at all, again, jumping to conclusions without reading what was actually written.) and it didn't say bethel plans this event at all, they said if you need info you can contact them. I imagine you could also contact any other church in Brandon for info as well. You're just jumping to conclusions on this, that Bethel planned it. (Why would it have been a bad thing if they had? Is suddenly praying for a government offical a bad thing?)
I didn't post for some time? What? lol, i've been posting quite a bit throughout this month. (that's as far back as i checked, i have no deire to look through every post to see which days i missed. lol) Now what? It didn't work for you to insinuate i was this gail or julia character so now your trying to accuse me of being who? Pastor Mike? Really, I've just got to shake my head and laugh at that one. First you accuse TRT of being him and now me?
"Funny, how you saw something that NEVER occurred"
So first you say it occured, but not like we said, then you said it didn't happen at all. THEN you said you didn't recall it happening, but your friend reminded you of it. And you painted yourself as the good guy in it. Then (i believe yesterday's or todays, i don't care to check which day) you said that there was only one person in the room to witness the whole situation. And NOW you're back to saying it didn't happen. My last count of that was 4 different accounts (all from you, i'm not even counting the event that myself or tt witnessed and posted about) of the same situation. Its crazy that you have so many versions of the same event. Yet you're the one calling anyone here who is disagreeing with you liars, witches, and all sorts of dirty names. You claim to have told the truth on everything, yet you have four different versions of the same story.
Also, on my checking back of this page, i noticed a post by the cd host who said that you indicated in your posts that you didn't know who gave the letter to the paper. (Post was made on March 14th) Yet you just came on here and told us that now you do know how the letter got there, but you don't want to share the name of this person.
Your stories seem to have a life of their own, and keep growing and changing with every other post.
"I ABHOR LIES, gossip, slander, etc"
Yet I've just shown on here two instances (at the very least) where you've been caught lying, My previous post already addressed your gossip about the pm meeting with the conservatives (and maybe even bethel)Not to mention previous posts about some guy smoking. And most of your posts are slander, in which you call anyone here who disagree's with you all sorts of names. For someone who abhors all these things you certainly spend a lot of time doing them.
yawn,deborah same old arguement with nothing to back it up. You need some new material.
oh and no I'm not the youth pastors wife, but there were a number of people involved in looking for them. I being one of them.
I knew ALL along who took that letter to The Brandon Sun.
The CD host was perhaps NOT aware of this.
I may have even indicated this in an earlier post.
This is NOT new information or changed information at all.
The Brandon Sun knows, Pastor Mike even knows.
I forgave this individual because I understood where they were coming from when they did this.
They were VERY UPSET that I would receive a letter like that and perhaps they had other personal reasons for doing this as well.
There were NO WITNESSES to an event that NEVER OCCURRED in the way that you would like to think that it did; only in your gossiping, slandering IMAGINATION perhaps.
My dispute is with Gayle K. and Julie V.A. who lied about myself to Pastor Mike repeatedly.
I DON'T KNOW WHY Pastor Mike BELIEVED this nonsense and WHY he didn't bother to check things out for himself.
I REALLY HOPE that he is NOT also part of this and part of the problem.
I REALLY HOPE that he is NOT spreading false claims himself.
I WILL and PLAN TO find out.
I want to get to the BOTTOM of the LIES that stemmed from TWO NOTORIOUS GOSSIPS from Bethel; one of whom (Gayle K.) stalked myself, my family, and then my neighbors.
WHY would Bethel NOT deal with these women when they have a HISTORY of this kind of abusive behavior and yet come down SO HARD on myself because and after I wrote a Letter to the Editor?
This is the part that MAKES NO SENSE TO ME AT ALL.
There are NO MANY VERSIONS.
There is one version.
I was honest enough to admit that I DIDN'T remember the Nursery worker crying until I consulted my friend who remembered that happening.
But what she remembers happening is NOT WHAT YOU CLAIM to have seen at all.
It is QUITE a DIFFERENT story.
The ONLY PERSON that came and asked me if she could help me look for my foster children was the Youth Pastor's wife.
I was NOT aware of anyone else who was SUPPOSEDLY looking for them.
Again, I guess that the NOSY GOSSIPS would stick their nose into this one as well, seeing as you didn't seem to miss too much happening there that involved myself.
WHY don't you pay attention to your own life and your OWN PROBLEMS/TROUBLES without trying to find fault with myself?
I sure NEVER talked about you behind your back and ran to a Pastor REPEATEDLY about you like you did to me.
WHY would Pastor Mike even ALLOW this to repeatedly occur?
Well, we'll see IF your story sticks when you are called to task for it.
My friend will be there to refute your version of the story, as will the Youth Pastor's wife.
I have ALL THIS TROUBLE with SO-CALLED Christians who are SUPPOSE to KNOW BETTER.
I hold people who CLAIM to be Christians to a HIGHER STANDARD than I do non-Christians.
My conscience is clean and clear.
MY you seem to have an UNCANNY ability to be in ALL places at ALL times when you say that you in fact live in ANOTHER province.
I DON'T BELIEVE that for one moment.
Perhaps you can explain THIS to the PAOC if an inquiry is called.
Why would Pastor Mike and Bethel NOT WANT TO GET TO THE TRUTH regarding what actually occurred and took place here?
This in itself is EXTREMELY UNSETTLING and TROUBLING to myself.
You are the one FULL OF HATE for conjuring up this Sunday School worker story in the FIRST place.
Please explain your TOTAL INVOLVEMENT with my daughter's puppy and my neighbor.
HOW could you do this to my daughter and to myself, you hateful, spiteful creature who calls herself a Christian?
That's NO CHRISTIAN AT ALL.
Stop calling yourself something that YOU ARE NOT.
NOBODY DECENT could do such a thing and spread ALL of these tales and lies.
Only a TROUBLED, sorry, sad individual could do this.
I am going to ask the media to get to the BOTTOM of EVERY incident that supposedly involves myself.
The truth IS going to come out.
I will INSIST upon this and DEMAND this.
Those who have lied WILL be found out and uncovered.
Even Pastor Mike himself is on tape speaking about the WITCHES within Bethel.
Is he a victim in this also?
I want the TRUTH. I DESERVE the truth to be told. I INSIST on getting to the bottom of this fiasco.
WHY would Bethel NOT INSIST UPON THIS AND WANT THIS also?
Pastor Mike, the Board of Bethel, the congregation deserve the truth.
EVERYONE deserves the TRUTH to be told in this instance that involves myself.
This TOTALLY BEFUDDLES me!
On a MUCH HAPPIER note, my son just called me from Phoenix, Arizona and he said that our banks in Canada have earned at least 3 TIMES AS MUCH as any bank anywhere else in the world right now.
He said that our ECONOMY is in GREAT SHAPE compared to every other economy in every other country in the world.
He said that our Canadian banks have recorded RECORD PROFITS. I don't know if he is speaking about in this last quarter or what.
Prime Minister Stephen Harper appears to be doing a GREAT JOB leading our country then if this is the case.
I ALWAYS give FULL CREDIT where credit is due and ALWAYS will continue to do this.
I think that Dog the Bounty Hunter is a REAL Christian.
He's REAL. He's NOT a fake. He HELPS people, MANY people.
He RELATES to people at their level.
He HELPS people within his community.
He DOESN'T judge people or think that he's BETTER than anyone.
He's NOT on a holier than thou high horse.
He INTERACTS with people within his community.
He's been THROUGH some things.
He smokes but he REALLY CARES about people.
He is KIND to those he captures.
He ISN'T A PHONY!
He tells it like it is.
He DOESN'T PRETEND to be something that he isn't.
He prays.
He presents his TRUE SELF to his audience, to his captors, to his family.
He ADMITS when he's made a mistake, when he's wrong.
I LIKE this man VERY MUCH.
I can RELATE to REAL AND GENUINE.
I have REAL TROUBLE with PHONY BALONEY ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.
He doesn't appear to lie and then hide BEHIND his church for safety and protection.
He doesn't appear to be running to his Pastor with tales and stories.
How disgusting and ALL TOO FAMILIAR that scenario is!
Many of these so-called Christians could learn a thing or a hundred from this man's example.
Uh dog the bounty hunter also use vile racial terms to talk about his son's girl friend, quite surprising that anyone would look up to him as a true Christian lol. On another note, I'm fairly certain if you went to the media to "investigate" everything that happened, they'd tell you no and to go away. You can say things didn't happen the way they happened over and over again deborah, fact is there are people who are witness to the event who know the truth. You've been caught in too many lies to count on here alone. Besides you never addressed my other post about the reasons why you wouldn't be given a teaching job in brandon. I guess its easier to just make up stories and blame everyone else rather than take responsibility for your own actions.
I have nothing much to add right now other then to agree with tt. These are the same old accusations you throw when you get caught in your lies. (So just so i'm clear, are you backing away of accusing me to be Pastor Mike and are back to accusing me to be some gail or julia person?)
Like i've repeatedly mentioned, yet you continue to ignore is that I do visit Brandon, and have only claimed to be witness to one event. The nursery situation. Which did not happen as you said it did. (In any of your four versions of it)
Same old ploy of yours to throw accusations rather then address what's being talked about.
Dog the Bounty Hunter also APOLOGIZED for his mistake.
He's a REAL person who realizes that he is only human and that he made a mistake.
He's NOT a pompous, arrogant liar and know it all.
He's a REAL person who acknowledges his weaknesses and asks for FORGIVENESS for them.
Like I said, we could ALL learn a lot from the example of Dog the Bounty Hunter.
He's DEFINITELY NOT pretending to be somebody that he ISN'T.
What you see is what you get and MANY PEOPLE can readily relate to REAL.
He is HONEST and REAL.
He's NOT judgmental, condemning and abusive.
IF he gets to be that way, he then ACKNOWLEDGES this, APOLOGIZES for this and gets himself back in line.
You KNOW what happened regarding my teaching in Brandon.
ANOTHER LIE from the pit of hell, unless of course you were calling them as well.
I'm sure that Dr. Michaels would like to hear this one also.
I will be sure to ask her.
You can CLAIM that you were present for whatever.
This is a LIE that I plan to expose as well as the rest of the ABSOLUTE NONSENSE coming from ALL of you on here, UNLESS of course you are ALL planning to lie.
God KNOWS our hearts. He SEES, He hears, He SAW what happened and what occurred.
I have a DEEP REVERENCE AND A FEAR of God.
I REALLY HOPE that my God will VINDICATE ME on this earth.
CD host, I am going to scan this stuff that I have.
It PROVES much of what I have been declaring here in these other areas, with this Gayle K., this neighbor, the Animal Bylaw officer, etc.
WHAT LIE did you tell to Pastor Mike?
Let's hear that one.
I will ask someone from the PAOC perhaps, to ask him this question directly.
Let's hear what REALLY happened and occurred here.
This is all MIGHTY CHRISTIAN of you.
What a FINE EXAMPLE you are. (Not)
I called Pastor Mike's house and I spoke to his wife, Cathy and she HESITATED when I asked her IF I could come to church there on Sunday evenings.
She DID NOT say that I could.
She said that, "They were told that they could not refuse anyone."
I DON'T have ANY DESIRE to be treated badly there and so I will go anywhere else.
I just wish that more churches had Sunday evening services.
I would like to discuss the topic of abortion when I run.
I personally don't think that abortion should be used as a form of birth control within our society.
Is it being used as such?
I'd like to encourage or suggest that more young people give birth to their babies and give them up for adoption rather than to abort them.
Of course, every woman has their own choice as to what they choose to do with their own bodies, I would just like to suggest and ENCOURAGE that more women choose to give birth and choose life.
I want to see ABSTINENCE made available as a choice within the Sex Education Program of The Brandon School Division.
Currently, it is NOT made available as a choice and when a group asked why not, they were told that this WAS NOT A REALISTIC MESSAGE for our young people today within The Brandon School Division.
The Muslims and MANY OTHER groups within Brandon would beg to differ with that opinion of our current Brandon School Division leaders.
I want to talk about the FASTEST GROWING population in Canada, our First Nations people.
MANY young people are cutting themselves, hurting themselves and when you ask them WHY they are doing this, they say that they are trying to TAKE AWAY THE PAIN.
This is happening in EVERY culture also within our society these days.
MANY First Nations youth are INCREASINGLY being affected by Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and drugs when they are in the WOMB.
This is INCREASING RAPIDLY in our First Nations population.
This will pose a HUGE concern to us, as a nation, and to our Federal Health Care system in order to pay for the CONTINUED costs of this disorder.
As teachers, we were made to view the brain of a child AFFECTED by Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and there were HUGE HOLES in this child's brain.
The Winnipeg Free Press reported that MANY of these Fetal Alcohol Syndrome kids are SOUGHT OUT by the gangs because they are VERY IMPRESSIONABLE, VULNERABLE and EASILY MANIPULATED.
The statistics tell us that MOST of our incarcerated First Nations inmates HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY FETAL ALCOHOL SYNDROME in SOME WAY.
We need to raise, talk about and discuss these issues.
I feel that we need to pray for our nation, for our region, etc.
We need to DO MORE to PREVENT these things from happening again and again and again.
I just want to raise and discuss EVERY ISSUE that concerns us here within this region.
We need to be HONEST about what we are facing and going through and I feel that we need to raise and discuss these things.
MANY parents are VERY concerned by the NAME program, I believe it is called, where the middle years students DO NOT receive actual marks or percentages but rather VERY VAGUE evaluations and progress reports on their Report Cards.
Let's talk about the standard of Education within this region.
Let's discuss EVERYTHING that ultimately concerns us here within Brandon and Westman.
NO TOPIC should be off limits in this campaign.
Let's get our head OUT of the sand, let's get REAL, let's get pro-active and let's have a plan of action to MOVE FORWARD as a city, as a community, as a people, and as a region.
Let's be HONEST in ALL areas and regarding ALL of our concerns here within Brandon and within this region.
You can provide all the proof you want about your neibour and dog or what not, no one is arguing with you about it. It's really not on our radar of important issues.
you can't be serious cd host. you use an situation from somewhere else not to mention in a completely different situation and use it to validate assumptions on behalf of Deborah and what she says without proof. If that is the case then i could quote situations regarding her and her actions from the past that have caused disruption in other events and situations, wouldn't that be the same thing. Her inability to tell the complete truth in just about every matter she brings up should defintely be considered important regarding both her motives and intentions. Despite all she has says and the proof she says she has that never gets posted on here, her slander of all that are involved (and many who aren't) should prove in itself that she has more to answer for. She keeps claiming that bethel is behind everything that is going on wrong in her life. Would it suprise yo to learn that she had many problems such as this before anything with bethel ever started. There is a pattern of character here that begs to be looked at further. Assuming that she only tells the truth about some things but not others is just too much for me to believe. I happen to know for a fact that her brother in law is more than knowledgeable about computers, if she had documents to scan, i know he can do it within seconds in his sleep. under the assumptions that we seem to be allowing, is there a reason why he is not doing this for her, or is it there are no documents to scan? I realize that he said he wants nothing to do with this, but he is not getting involved if he scans it for her. I do believe that Pastor Mike has some questions to answer, but putting myself in his place, I would not get involved any further as Deborah doesn't quit even when the situation is reviewed. In point the dog, she won the court case and then left the dog at the womans place, then wouldn't pay the amount aggreed upon at court. BUt according to her, that is all bethels continuing reign of harrasement. Why if you were pastor mike would you want to get any more involved then he is at this point if according to Deborah, all the problems she has is because of him or his church. she has been told repeatedly that she can attend bethel, yet claims she in excommunicated? It is her choice not to go, not theirs. Besides, in the case of pator mike regarding the dog or the house, it is literally impossible to prove he is not involved, as all he can do to prove it is to say he didn't say anything or set anything up. Deborah will never believe that, regardless of what is said by who. You can't prove a negative in this situation. IN Canada as well as the states, you are innocent till proven guilty. We would do well to remember that before we speak ill of anyone who has devoted their life to helping others.
Deborah, did you not read my post earlier regarding DF and TT. THEY ARE NOT IN BRANDON according to their IP addresses.
Your ideal of what a good christian is seems to be somewhat sidewards. While not a church goer normally ( i like to sleep in sundays) a good christian would never say that someone who disagrees with you should go to hell and will be judged and punished. You have a lot of gall to speak badly of others yet hold yourself up as a supposed beacon of light. Your rights as a human being give you the right to think whatever you want, but not the right to condenm or persecute others at your whim in public. How others live is there business, not yours as long as it doesn't directly interfere with your life.
I look forward to your reply CD-Host. Very impressive arguments you present.
Again deborah, back to attacking people when they don't agree with you. same old same old.
CD-Host, I completely agree with regarding what you have posted.
"I've been attacking Davis for his actions that are quite provable."
But the argument i have is the slander regarding all the other instances that Deborah is making noise about. And i also agree that the other situations should be irrelevant to Pastor Dave's actions. Deborah won't allow that by her posting on here. She continues to slander him and others without any due process.
He should come forward and speak about the banishment (if it is such, i am still not satisfied that it is), but can understand why he doesn't in the storm of accusations Deborah is throwing his way. As to what is beside Deborah's name on the public roll, i have no idea what is there, i have been to that church at one time, (too stuffy and old school for me, prefer something more than singing chants and mantra's) and am sure that my name has never been entered on the roll either.
I would like to see all of this resolved regarding Pastor Mike, i just am not sure if anything will be resolved if Deborah isn't willing to accept that perhaps her memory on other situations aren't quite perfect. Until other things are cleared up, how can we see the trees for the forest kind of thing.
"Failing to cooperate with an investigation
Failing to cooperate with state agencies
Failing to provide proper documentation
Failure to follow proper process"
Who's investigation is he failing to cooperate with? Yours? And state agencies? I assume your talking about the press, and he is under NO obligation to speak with them or you for that matter. As for failing to provide proper documentation, such as?
You're basing a lot of this on the assumption that he needs to answer your questions, and answer to you on this.
None of your attacks have been provable, most are based on assumptions of information you don't have and a sense of entitlement to have him answer to you.
bdn resient --
He should come forward and speak about the banishment (if it is such, i am still not satisfied that it is), but can understand why he doesn't in the storm of accusations Deborah is throwing his way.
I don't think her accusations on other issues diminish his responsibilities on these official areas. In fact they are connected:
1) If she is still a member then these accusation regarding the pastor harassing a member should be handled in the context of church discipline.
2) If she has been transferred then they should be handled by her new church.
3) If she is excommunicated then she believer her new church is the restoring church, and thus would deal with those. In which case Davis should raise the issues with them...
4) If he believes she isn't meaningfully attending any church and is excommunicated then Davis should be warning the Christian community
etc....
I would like to see all of this resolved regarding Pastor Mike, i just am not sure if anything will be resolved if Deborah isn't willing to accept that perhaps her memory on other situations aren't quite perfect. Until other things are cleared up, how can we see the trees for the forest kind of thing.
Like you would any other complex case. Reconstruct what is known and work out a series of events consistent with the evidence.
CD-Host
"1) If she is still a member then these accusation regarding the pastor harassing a member should be handled in the context of church discipline."
Without commenting on the membership issue, the main problem i have with this is the assumption on the harrassement. I don't see any actual proof there has been a co-ordinated harrassement orchestrated by the pastor. Just Deborah's saying there was, which is not provable in any court.
"2) If she has been transferred then they should be handled by her new church."
She hasn't been transferred as much as walked out of one into another. And if she is a member of the new church, why haven't they discussed with or dealt with Bethel.
"3) If she is excommunicated then she believer her new church is the restoring church, and thus would deal with those. In which case Davis should raise the issues with them..."
As Davis has never actually used the term excommunication or banishment, i would then believe it would be up to the new church to bring up the issue with him, not the other way around.
"4) If he believes she isn't meaningfully attending any church and is excommunicated then Davis should be warning the Christian community"
Whether she is attending another church or not is in reality none of his business, where and when she attends church is no-ones business but her own. I would think it completely wrong for him to speak out or make any accusations regarding Deborah in public. Especially after the discussions regarding his talking behind Deborah's back.
"Like you would any other complex case. Reconstruct what is known and work out a series of events consistent with the evidence."
That is my point though, the case in itself has nothing to do with the dog or the house, unless and only when some proof is finally brought forward that directly links him to some kind of consolidated attack on Deborah. Other than a series of events that may or may not be connected through Pastor Mike. Until there is a direct link, i don't see how we can assume he is guilty on a he said she said kind of thing.
My belief in dealing with this would be to separate the issues regarding the leaving the church from both the dog and the house, then separate the dog from the house, only then do i believe we can get the problems truths and assumptions and perhaps find any links between any or all of them.
The problem with that Resident, is that Deborah's whole case and cause is the Dog and the House.
Look at her first words.
"My name is Deborah Boschman and these statements are a COMPLETE LIE. I absolutely NEVER made a child cry that I was EVER aware of. SEVERAL individuals from this church have BLATANTLY LIED. The REAL truth is that the former Administrator's husband of this church WAS A TOTAL CROOK."
To her, it's all about these things.
"1) If she is still a member then these accusation regarding the pastor harassing a member should be handled in the context of church discipline."
Without commenting on the membership issue, the main problem i have with this is the assumption on the harrassement. I don't see any actual proof there has been a co-ordinated harrassement orchestrated by the pastor. Just Deborah's saying there was, which is not provable in any court.
It doesn't have to be provable for there to be a church discipline complaint. Basically Deborah would choose 2 persons who know Davis and one who is friendly and respected by him (an elder at Bethel would be a good choice) and this person committee would address the accusations. They would be conducting the finding of fact.
At one extreme you have the criminal justice system where a citizen files a police complaint where the police do the investigation. In a civil system the parties have to prove their facts though the court can assist in forcing one side to provide documentation. Church discipline is about 3/4ths towards the civil model and 1/4th towards the criminal.
But if she is a member in good standing of her new church, and that church has fraternal relations she is absolutely entitled to this and Davis is absolutely required to cooperate.
"2) If she has been transferred then they should be handled by her new church."
She hasn't been transferred as much as walked out of one into another. And if she is a member of the new church, why haven't they discussed with or dealt with Bethel.
It is Bethel that determines if she transferred or underwent erasure. Bethel determines if it wants to release her or not. If they released her with known unfinished business with Bethel then both churches are responsible to work out the issue. If they didn't release her then Bethel can approach the new congregation or Davis can individually.
If the church is not one of like faith and practice i.e. Bethel doesn't view the new church as valid then they are still her congregation....
"3) If she is excommunicated then she believer her new church is the restoring church, and thus would deal with those. In which case Davis should raise the issues with them..."
As Davis has never actually used the term excommunication or banishment, i would then believe it would be up to the new church to bring up the issue with him, not the other way around.
If Davis didn't excommunicate her then she falls into either transfer or erasure. Again this is Davis trying to have it multiple ways where he is not responsible for doing his responsibilities under any of these scenarios. Bethel has to pick they don't get to sit on the fence.
"4) If he believes she isn't meaningfully attending any church and is excommunicated then Davis should be warning the Christian community"
Whether she is attending another church or not is in reality none of his business,
If she is still a member of Bethel then this is her restoring church.
If the new church is part of PAOC they aren't allowed to take Deborah without a transfer and yes Davis has an obligation to inform them. Similarly if the churches have fraternal relations. If they don't then from Davis' perspective there is no new church and yes it is other people's business. An excommunication is a public act.
where and when she attends church is no-ones business but her own. I would think it completely wrong for him to speak out or make any accusations regarding Deborah in public. Especially after the discussions regarding his talking behind Deborah's back.
Again it is his business and the business of his session depending. Transfers are public. Restorations are public.... If he wants to stop being accused of talking behind her back he should stop playing games, talk to her front and handle the process in a lawful way.
BDN resident (part 2)
That is my point though, the case in itself has nothing to do with the dog or the house, unless and only when some proof is finally brought forward that directly links him to some kind of consolidated attack on Deborah. Other than a series of events that may or may not be connected through Pastor Mike. Until there is a direct link, i don't see how we can assume he is guilty on a he said she said kind of thing.
AFAIK everyone myself included disagrees with her regarding the house. As far as the dog, he is getting accused of being sneaky because he is being sneaky.
My belief in dealing with this would be to separate the issues regarding the leaving the church from both the dog and the house, then separate the dog from the house, only then do i believe we can get the problems truths and assumptions and perhaps find any links between any or all of them.
I agree the first step is the excommunication. And this is the one most closely tied to Bethel.
TRT --
She has made about 100 posts to a church discipline board, spoke with the CBC about her excommunication and provided what is essentially a letter of dismissal.
In her theory of the case she was wrongfully excommunicated as part of a campaign of harassment. She focuses on the harassment not the excommunication but it is not unreasonable on a church discipline board to focus on the one part of her case that directly involves church discipline.
For everyone here,
CD Host is as unbiased as it gets. He has reviewed the admittedly unorthodox church that I attend. As he stated earlier in this thread, “I have found churches to be not guilty of misconduct even when I've disagreed with their policies.” In this case, he finds the pastor of Bethel Christian Assembly guilty of misconduct. I happen to agree with him.
I’ve been following this massive thread from the beginning. I’ll agree that Deborah doesn’t represent herself well in print. This is just my opinion from what I’ve read, I’ve never met the woman, but I’ll bet she’s difficult to get along with in person and probably a little loopy to say the least. However, symptoms of Asperger’s Syndrome are not a reason to exclude a person from Christian community. It is easy to shun those who push us out of our comfort zone. It takes strength of character, perseverance and even suffering to extend the love of Christ to difficult people. Unfortunately for us, Christ did not ask us to love our neighbors that are like us as ourselves. Fortunately, for those who are a little different than us, He did command us: “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.”
I admit, if I were Pastor Mike or one of the other members at Bethel, I would be sorely tempted to show Deborah the door for the sake of making my own little church community more comfortable and easier to occupy. However, consulting the Word, praying to God and communing with my fellow Christians would assure that I endeavor to love this woman, warts and all. Christ does not tell us that our lives should be comfortable and easy. In Matthew 8:20, in response to a teacher who promised to follow Him, Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head." During the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:9, Christ promises us: "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.”
Whether this is rebuke, banishment, an excommunication or throwing dog poop on her shoes and yelling, “I break with thee,” does not matter. If a member of the Christian community requires admonishment, it is the community’s responsibility to administer admonishment. If the member requires excommunication and restoration, it is the community’s responsibility to oversee the process. If a member retains an unrepentant, willful disregard for God’s will, it is the community’s responsibility to assure that this person doesn’t just walk into someone else’s Christian community and start wreaking havoc. Not living up to these responsibilities is reprehensible.
It’s tough being a Christian, live with it.
tt,
Pastor Davis' letter is vile because he is using his position in church authority to attempt to squelch the free political speech of one of his congregation as a favor to his cronies in the local government. As CD has pointed out, Pastor Davis uses a faulty hermeneutic to twist the scripture and uses this as a basis to rebuke Deborah. Writing letters to the editor calling for political action opposing the current leaders is not grounds for a even the church discipline of a mild rebuke, let alone suggesting that someone find another church. This woman needs loved, not turned out by the community.
CD,
I find it simply amazing that the original article has resulted in over 700 comments.
Hi Icy --
Yeah it is amazing which threads end up being popular and which end up getting ignored. Thanks for the vote of confidence.
I should mention that Icy's pastor when confronted with any question about actions within his church consistently does his best to get the bottom of it, and has put in place a formal review committee. A full series of checks and balances. The result is almost 20 years of none of the problems that Mike Davis confronts even when dealing with much younger people and probably 40x as many members.
" As far as the dog, he is getting accused of being sneaky because he is being sneaky. "
come on, really. small reach there don't you think. If you call him sneaky then what does that make Deborah? No one, don't care if it is church or state law is guilty because someone thinks they are sneaky. And all this still centers around her excumminication. Other than this blog or deborah's words has that word shown up anywhere. Until such time that someone else in a place of some kind of authority it shouldn't be named as such. the letter did not say she can't go to bethel, bottom line. You or deborah or TT or DF or Icy can say the word as many times as you like, unless Pastor Mike says it or proof actually comes out saying such, it in any place of law, it never happenned. I would certainly walk into court or a PAC session and present my case as such. And any judge or PAC session may listen to the arguement and then ask point blank for proof of any of this, starting with some kind of proof about the excummincation other than the letter that actually states 'Excummunication'.
I do believe i would be tagged for the letter regarding what my responsibility is for a individuals political policies. That i have never argued about, just what has been said exactly and the assumptions that have been make.
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